Confession Making a Comeback

[catholic_heart]

Such an odd story to find in the Wall Street Journal, of all places, but this is very interestingWhat are your folks thoughts on confessing sins to another? It is clearly commended in Scripture, James 5:16, as a healing rite. This passage in particular, as well as the authority given by Christ to the Apostles to forgive sins and hold them bound,

Comments

[pastorlenny]

Celebrate Recovery, Overcomers Anonymous, and More Excellent Way are among some of the groups that Christians have created in an attempt to replicate the 12-step thing and somehow make it more "kosher" by basically using the Bible instead of AA/NA literature and doing away with the "Higher Power" terminology in favor of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I appreciate the intent of these movements and have been involved in several of them. My general view of them is somewhat iffy for a variety of reasons that I don't have time to go into at the moment. Let's just say that if I have diabetes, I don't insist that my doctor be a Christian. I need him or her to be a good doctor. Addiction is a disease (albeit with a spiritual component). I'd rather send someone in need of recovery into a room with 25 pre-Christian alcoholics with a cumulative total of 180 years of solid sobriety among them and strong working knowledge of all 12 steps than I would a room with four sponsorless Christians who are doctrinally strong but experientially weak. After all, Christians should already be in close relationships with other Christians, so the Christian 12-step meetings don't always add a whole lot of value. Also, empirical observation suggests that Christians who surrender fully and go to mainstream 12-step meetings do better than those who hide out in church.

That said, if that's what someone wants to do, that's fine. I just have a general preference for the uncut. :)

[chaeri]

hm, have you ever been to a few weeks of meetings of any of those groups?

those are some pretty strong statements. CR has brought our church alive, saved my parents marriage, my relationship with them, and my relationship with my brother as well as my relationship with God.

CR is what the church ought to be - as soon as you walk in you know that you will be accepted no matter what because, well, everyone else is there for some reason. if someone were to say "so why are YOU here" you can come back with that exact phrase.

i think its a bit judgmental to write off all those groups, especially if you haven't been to at least a month of meetings of each.

before anyone says anything about how its God that saves: God works through people, groups to bring his salvation.

[chaeri]

it also sounds like you don't quite understand how CR works. you can't just be a leader right away - you have to have solid understanding of the bible, undergo some training, and have had success in beating your own addiction, even if you still struggle. there are guidelines and materials to follow while going through the program, so its not a bunch of people sitting around chatting.

its not hiding out - there is no such thing as a structured Recovery group for many addictions, or for people who had to live with someone with an addiction. the only well-known one is AA, which is for alcoholics. NA is not as well known nor does it exist in many places. any other support group is through a local hospital or doctor, which most people don't know how to access.

also, some people just are simply more comfortable being with christians while discussing their problems - and that's not something i am going to judge them for.

[pastorlenny]

you have to have solid understanding of the bible, undergo some training, and have had success in beating your own addiction, even if you still struggle.

Understood. But one of the key gaps here is sponsorship, which is one of the cornerstones of the 12-step program. Bible understanding, training, and "success in beating your own addiction" (which is a sort of unfortunate construction) are great -- but it's sort of problematic to sponsor someone when you yourself have not been sponsored by someone who has a sponsor. Call me legalistic, but it's definitely a kind of "apostolic succession" thing.

there is no such thing as a structured Recovery group for many addictions

Which addictions might those be?

NA is not as well known nor does it exist in many places.

Where does it not exist? And not well-known by whom? And does it matter how well known it is? Aren't its effectiveness and the scriptural/clinical validity of its practices the key issue?

[chaeri]

well, CR does the sponsorship. at least in my church, the original sponsors are, respectively, a pastor (who is sponsored by his pastor who is sponsored by the presbyter) and a well respected woman in the church who has her own sponsor. everyone is strongly encouraged to find a sponsor in the group - preferably a group leader.

NA doesn't exist very much in this area - at least, i've barely heard of it.

addictions such as pornography, sex, anger, judgment, prescription medication, or personal issues such as co-dependency from anything other than alcohol, self-doubt, suicidal tendencies, depressions etc don't have any nationally known AA counterparts.

as i said in another comment - i hope it doesn't come off as too defensive, and i am sorry if it does. i just get protective and knee-jerk react to anything that smacks of "you don't need support!God is enough!" which i realize was not what you said. probably shoudl think before i post :/

[pastorlenny]

No worries. I'm just the opposite, as you can tell. I've just seen better results in the secular groups that have greater depth of experience and draw from a broader population.

I'd also be very surprised if there isn't NA in your area. NA at this point, by the way, is about 1/3 prescription addictions -- so I'm not sure why you broke that out as another category. I would also disagree about the lack of groups for pornography and sex. There are actually multiple groups for those.

Aren't there may be some problems in trying to apply the 12-step model to something like "depression?" What is the bottom-line behavior that one is abstaining from with depression? If you're sad, do you consider it a relapse? And how would a 12-step program address the fact that someone's depression is at least in part clinical? If someone is on meds, do they still go? When things start to get this fuzzy, I just think we can wind up with a very wonderful support group -- but not something that I'd actually call a 12-step program.

So your presbyter goes to meetings regularly and has worked the 12 steps? He has how much clean time from what specific addictive behavior? How about your pastor? Did he work the steps for their general benefit? Or did he have a specific addiction that he has been free of for a specific length of time?

(Obviously you can't answer those questions in a public forum. They're just rhetorical so you see where I'm coming from).

Again, I don't mean to imply anything against the good work that is going on. I'm just curious about some of the techniques employed -- because I've seen these gaps lead to diminished effectiveness.

By the way, I might also add that when it comes to bringing people to Christ, nothing beats attendance at secular 12-step meetings. I wish more of us were visibly vulnerable. Perhaps then more people would understand that we don't claim to be anything other than earthen vessels -- and that the treasure is freely available to all.

[chaeri]

well, CR isn't just for an addiction to work through to get sober. it also applies to the underlying issues - and there are ALWAYS underlying issues. you can work through depression in a group like that by admitting that you are depressed, by asking others to support you, by working through the things that have caused the depression.

i believe you that there are groups out there for other things, i just have never heard of them. i've also never heard of groups for spiritual issues which always underly the physical addictions.

i don't completely know the pastor in charge of CRs story, but i do know he dealt with drugs at some point. as far as the pastor etc they don't need to attend the meetings - that wasn't the point i was making. they just are there for him as he leads the program, as other people are there for him etc. it doesn't have to be in an official capacity of CR to be effective.

i am not sure i made it clear before: CR isn't just to get people sober. its to get people to find out and overcome what caused them to become addicted in the first place - which is what causes TRUE sobriety. its not just for people who have an obvious addiction or even an addiction at all. its also for co-dependents, those who are depressed, those who are angry, those who are - well, name any spiritual issue. therefore, its for anyone.

working the 8 steps the have (CR condensed a few) is a good idea for someone who doesn't have any idea on how to get out of depression or ask for help. its a structure, and thats necessary sometimes.

yea, dad got sober for 2 years in AA but it didn't last and it didn't scratch the surface of the underlying cause. only a christian group could do that.

[pastorlenny]

I've launched them, led them, supported them, and been sending people to them for more than a decade. I don't doubt that they can be quite effective -- and, yes, we have seen people come to Christ during the meetings. I'm just letting you know what my overall view is. The percentage of people achieving long-term abstinence (i.e. five years or more) is about twice as high in mainstream 12-step groups as it is in church-based meetings. The secular groups tend to particularly out-perform the Christian ones when it comes to food, pornography, and smoking.

I am glad your experience has been successful. Just like some congregations do better than others, so do some 12-step groups. We even see that among different AA groups. Some become quite strong, while others seem to lack the same efficacy.

CR is what the church ought to be

Here, I very much agree. That's why I try to bring a lot of CR vibe into the church itself -- rather than compartmentalize it into a weekday evening meeting. But I generally push people who are entering recovery into a meeting every single day for the first 90 days -- so even though they are certainly welcome to include Christian meetings in that schedule, they probably would have to to secular ones too. I also strongly encourage Christians to learn from non-Christians, just as Jesus did. Note also the schooling Moses got from his Midianite father-in-law.

Actually, when the church starts looking more like CR, the "salvation rate" approaches 100%. Who wouldn't want the Jesus who heals. doesn't judge, and offers a new way of life filled with hope and freedom from addiction?

[chaeri]

i am glad we agree on the main point, and i hope i didn't sound too defensive. CR and AA have been a huge help to my family, and i tend to get overly protective of things that i like.

[pastorlenny]

Me too. So nobody better mess with you!!!

[chaeri]

thanks :)

my pastor had an excellent sermon a few weeks ago about what the church ought to be. actually, all the sermons are online, free. i can send you the link if you want to check them out.

[pastorlenny]

Sure. If they're good it will save me a lot of work.

[chaeri]

LOL now now...

Radio Sermons - our local radio station broadcasts the sermons of our pastor. he finds it really weird, but its been going on for at least 20 years so he didn't feel it was a hill to die on, so to speak.