The previous post gives a link to an online discussion about 'Women Submitting' at GodlyGals. The prevalent views at that forum were that women should submit to their husbands. I don't agree
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There is a wonderful book out there that I would recommend for you to read. It's called Captivating By John & Stasi Eldridge. It goes into the gifts that God gave to women exclusively and how we are supposed to use those gifts.
I believe (and it is Biblical) that God gave the leadership role to men -- He designed them to be leaders and providers for their families. While women CAN lead, yes, that is not the role that God gave us.
By those verses you quoted on submitting, I don't take it to mean that men can trash their wives, or that men can take advantage of women and we're supposed to roll over and let them. What it means is that we are supposed to respect our husbands as a leader and in turn, our husbands are supposed to love us as Christ loved the church -- with respect and loyalty.
The book I recommended goes into these thoughts about men and women and what gifts God gave each of us in order to be a complete unit. We each have unique qualities that when used together compliment each other. Not to mention, it reminds us that Adam was in the garden when Eve ate the apple and he didn't do a thing to stop her -- she took the first bite, but he wasn't a leader in that situation and he sat idly by (and God gave him the responsibility -- He told Adam not to eat from the tree before He even made Eve). It was Adam's lack of leadership that was just as much to blame as Eve's first bite of the apple. "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." Genesis 3:6
BTW, Wild At Heart by John Eldridge goes into the gifts God gave men. I recommend reading both books -- they are very enlightening.
Thank you for the recommendations. Any literature that looks intelligently at ways of enhancing relationships and finding mutual love and respect is potentially much-needed.
Yes, your belief IS biblical. I just don't think the bible is correct about Adam and Eve (except symbolically as a myth) and therefore Paul's 'biblical' statements (which he justifies theologically with Adam and Eve) are a problem to me.
Indeed, however loving the relationship, the idea of subordination of people on the basis of gender is a big problem as far as I'm concerned!
I know you exercising faith in holding to the scriptures, and I know you see the submission thing very much in the context of love and mutual subordination to one another's needs, so I respect your good ideals.
I just question the theological basis that Paul creates to justify his teaching on women.
Well I understand what you're saying and I think it's good to research things you don't understand or don't agree with in order to make an informed decision. Obviously if you disagree with the Adam and Eve being the beginning of creation, then you'll have a problem with Paul's statements.
I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and therefore, I can trust it. Those books also use scripture as a basis for facts, so if you don't agree that the Bible is facts, you might not get much out of it. But I'd still recommend reading them...they shed a lot of light on things I didn't quite understand before the reading! Good luck to you!
i don't think we can pick and choose parts of the Bible to be true or untrue. That's not to say I believe in a literal 7 days... I don't really care one way or the other. God is God... If he wanted to take 7 days he could have, or it could be poetry. I'm good with either.
If we can't rely on the Bible to be truthful, we really are relying on our own intuition and knowledge to interpret the mind of God. I think that is a dangerous proposition; to fit God into the box we build in our own heads. How far is that from worshipping and idol?
It was Adam's lack of leadership that was just as much to blame as Eve's first bite of the apple.
I would even take this further and say it was on Adam who God lays the blame entirely. God doles out punishment first, the serpent (Genesis 3:14,15), then the woman (3:16) and finally to Adam (3:17), also through whom the real curse (death) comes: "for dust you are and to dust you will return." (3:19c)
Remember also Romans 5:12-21, specifically: For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (NIV)
I believe (and it is Biblical) that God gave the leadership role to men -- He designed them to be leaders and providers for their families. While women CAN lead, yes, that is not the role that God gave us.
By those verses you quoted on submitting, I don't take it to mean that men can trash their wives, or that men can take advantage of women and we're supposed to roll over and let them. What it means is that we are supposed to respect our husbands as a leader and in turn, our husbands are supposed to love us as Christ loved the church -- with respect and loyalty.
The book I recommended goes into these thoughts about men and women and what gifts God gave each of us in order to be a complete unit. We each have unique qualities that when used together compliment each other. Not to mention, it reminds us that Adam was in the garden when Eve ate the apple and he didn't do a thing to stop her -- she took the first bite, but he wasn't a leader in that situation and he sat idly by (and God gave him the responsibility -- He told Adam not to eat from the tree before He even made Eve). It was Adam's lack of leadership that was just as much to blame as Eve's first bite of the apple. "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." Genesis 3:6
BTW, Wild At Heart by John Eldridge goes into the gifts God gave men. I recommend reading both books -- they are very enlightening.
Reply
Yes, your belief IS biblical. I just don't think the bible is correct about Adam and Eve (except symbolically as a myth) and therefore Paul's 'biblical' statements (which he justifies theologically with Adam and Eve) are a problem to me.
Indeed, however loving the relationship, the idea of subordination of people on the basis of gender is a big problem as far as I'm concerned!
I know you exercising faith in holding to the scriptures, and I know you see the submission thing very much in the context of love and mutual subordination to one another's needs, so I respect your good ideals.
I just question the theological basis that Paul creates to justify his teaching on women.
Reply
I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and therefore, I can trust it. Those books also use scripture as a basis for facts, so if you don't agree that the Bible is facts, you might not get much out of it. But I'd still recommend reading them...they shed a lot of light on things I didn't quite understand before the reading! Good luck to you!
Reply
If we can't rely on the Bible to be truthful, we really are relying on our own intuition and knowledge to interpret the mind of God. I think that is a dangerous proposition; to fit God into the box we build in our own heads. How far is that from worshipping and idol?
Reply
Reply
I would even take this further and say it was on Adam who God lays the blame entirely. God doles out punishment first, the serpent (Genesis 3:14,15), then the woman (3:16) and finally to Adam (3:17), also through whom the real curse (death) comes: "for dust you are and to dust you will return." (3:19c)
Remember also Romans 5:12-21, specifically: For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (NIV)
Reply
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