OMG. OMG. NO SERIOUSLY, OMG. I SAW IT THIS MORNING AND THERE HAVE BEEN SQUEE FIREWORKS IN MY HEAD EVER SINCE! I JUST. I JUST! HOW AWESOME WAS TONY? AND GIBBS? AND TONYANDGIBBS?
I'm trying not get too gloaty and over-the-moony, but this fits what we'd been talking about so very well indeed!
Okay, Tony as conman. It's so perfect, and the difference between him and his father being that Junior is using his powers of deception for good while Senior uses them purely for his own gains - I CANNOT STRESS HOW MUCH I LOVE THAT DISTINCTION, OKAY?!?! I loved meeting his father, but I didn't like his father, not even a little bit. I felt sorry for him, because his wife died and he had no clue what to do and he was probably kind of addicted to lying and maybe didn't know what else to do but keep on lying - but what he does is kind of awful, despite the reasons. And I love that Tony didn't seem to think that, not really - he wasn't happy about his childhood, but he doesn't seem angry about it (although this is Tony, so duh), he just seemed
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1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoJanuary 15 2010, 01:06:10 UTC
EXACTLY! I read a spoiler or two (mostly reactions) before the episode aired here because I thought I would enjoy it more if I weren’t worrying about how bad it was going to be. And everyone was squeeing like crazy about it, and I was just sort of like, “Oh, good, it doesn’t suck.” I really thought people were overreacting. But then I watched it, and I still haven’t fully absorbed it yet! I’m not coherent about it yet so I might come back to your comment later, but for now…
There was not one single second of this episode that I didn’t love. I almost couldn’t watch it, it was that awesome. They squeezed so much in. Can you believe it was written by the same guys that did South by Southwest? I was so scared they were going to screw it up. (But now I’m irritated with them for being so lazy with the other eps! They could do this, but instead they were giving us that. Work harder, writers
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Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoJanuary 15 2010, 10:11:40 UTC
I was going to be really good and not read anyone's reactions at all before watching it, but I have crappy willpower so that lasted all of ten minutes. But then I was delighted because everyone seemed so happy and then I read about the steak - but even all the fandom glee couldn't actually prepare me for how awesome the episode really was! No, seriously, it was that good! I couldn't believe it!
Okay, I did not realise it was written by the SxSW guys, but it was weird because all the cowboy and steak references (none of those writers are vegetarians, clearly) totally made me think about that episode, peripherally, when I was watching! Because even though there are some things I dislike lots about SXSW, that's kind of the first episode that Gibbs shocks himself out of his weird detachment, because he's all terrified Tony's going to leave, and then this one sort of comes full circle: I've never seen Gibbs less detached than he was here
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Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoJanuary 18 2010, 17:07:48 UTC
I’ll probably edit this a million billion times because I still can’t be coherent about it. Whenever I try to think about Tony and his father, I just break down into a ridiculous fangirly puddle because OMG! OMG. How could you do that to your own child and not even notice? OMG.
I hadn’t noticed the steak thing, but now that you mention it, there were a couple of similarities between this and SxSw. In addition to being fans of meat, these writers also seem to be fans of cowboys and the Gibbs-Tony-separate-from-the-others dynamic, which is cool. I like the Gibbs-Tony thing better here because it didn’t have the feel of we’re splitting up the team! Also, in retrospect, I would have liked the team being split up in SxSw a lot more if we hadn’t had the Sherriff tagging along - think of the talks they could have had! The two episodes did share the fact that the opening scene was about money. And both had a Gibbs ‘n’ Tony Fireside Chat™. Actually, the more I talk about it, the more SxSw grows on me, sort of. I still don’t like it, but I
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Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoJanuary 20 2010, 15:31:14 UTC
I know. I know. It would be so different if he was being neglectful with a reason for it, but he genuinely seems to have had no qualms about pretty much ignoring his son entirely. When you said he saw Tony as a "non-entity", that totally sums it ups. He genuinely thinks he is the "real" Tony DiNozzo. Junior is literally that, junior to him in every single way, and, by inference, inferior. And he doesn't feel bad about that! I just! What? How can he live like that? He is the most screwed-up person on the show, by a million miles.
So, those writers actually have a great track record, because Heart Break is one of my favourite episodes ever. And, going along with the assumption the writers have planned all of this out (although I trust your analysis far more than I trust their intentions, I don't want to start getting expectations or anything), SxSW and Silent Night were both episodes with small, but really important moments for Gibbs. I can't hate SxSW because I pin so much of my Gibbs characterisation on that one moment on it, but it'
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Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoJanuary 22 2010, 01:58:41 UTC
Heh, lowered expectations do make life a lot simpler -- any surprises can only be good! I wouldn’t count any of those episodes as my favorites, but I really enjoy specific moments from all of them. Looking at them in a list, I can definitely see the tendency the writers have to mix deep and insightful character moments with bits of slapstick. I kind of hate the way they do slapstick, but it seems to be part of their formula, so whatever. Their Tony characterization is still one of my favorites. They see him as a bit of a frat boy but they also write in moments where he does care and is competent, and the other characters slowly discover those sides of him (Heart Break, Probie, Recoil, Silent Night, SxSw). They're the ones who came up with the pre-series long-term relationship for him in Silent Night! They do an excellent job of writing revelations for Gibbs, too, where his manpain doesn’t take over the episode, but we still have little moments of watching him realize new things
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Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoJanuary 25 2010, 12:41:30 UTC
I'm not always a fan of the slapstick they use in the show, because it's such a fine line ebtween funny/hitting my embarrassment squick - usually I'm okay with that, because Tony sets himself up as a clown and I love that he can be cringy because of it. I get paranoid sometimes that my Tony!fangirl makes me explain everything he does as either perfect, or the result of his tortured past - but sometimes, he does find things hilarious that make other people go, stop now. My favourite bit of physical humour is Tony putting the holepunch clippings in his cup and driving McGee insane by pretending it's liquid, then "spilling" it over his computers. I will also never get enough marriage jokes. But, yes, the Tony characterisation works so well, because if he wasn't such a frat boy, those small revelatory moments wouldn't be as intense. Those writers also showed how into Paula he was, and how could a teacher he could be with McGee! I forgive them for making him unable to ride a horse. Maybe. They're good at knowing when those moments are
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Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoFebruary 5 2010, 19:00:44 UTC
The thing with the clippings in the cup was really funny. I'm trying to work up the nerve to do it to our computer guy, but I'm afraid of what he would do in retaliation. He could take away my internet and never give me new computer equipment again and that would be horrible. I think the slapstick these particular writers work in to the episode can be funny, but they also have a tendency to be a little meaner in some of their jokes than the other writers do. I don't mind because they balance it out with awesome character moments, but it's a little weird, like some part of them is stuck in grade school and the other part has a deep understanding of each character's emotions. I wish Tony were still making marriage jokes, but I do love that he stopped because Gibbs asked him to
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Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoFebruary 15 2010, 12:27:51 UTC
I remember watching S1 and being only vaguely interested up until the point when Tony made a crack about having a cleaning lady, and it being amazing what he could do without three alimonies - that was the moment I fell in love with him and the show! I can't remember if I've got the episodes out of sequence in my head, and ... right, I'll check that because I literally have no recollection of the order of episodes, but I thought he made a little joke about divorce lawyers after Gibbs asked, like someone said something about them and he was all, "Gibbs, that true?" I love it either way, though - that he stopped making them because Gibbs asked him to, or that he couldn't resist even though Gibbs asked him to. (And as much as I try not to be all fangirly and convinced Tony is Gibbs' super special favourite, he really is the only one that gets away with those marriage cracks. Although, he is also the only one foolish enough to try.)
I love that quote, and I guess maybe it does make sense to have it now rather than in S6 because Gibbs is
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Re: 2/3 Gibbs!little_ozzoJanuary 15 2010, 10:48:26 UTC
I am work, and cannot see any images at all! Grr! I will check your icon choice later! ;-)
OMG, Gibbs! Seriously, he has changed so much, and in such a good way! I have never been so happy for a character, ever! He is acknowledging his pain and using it for the good of others! Someone just commented to me elsewhere that he feels like, which put an image in my brain of Gibbs reading self-help books at home, like, Chicken Soup for the Special Agent's Soul and - okay, I just went over to Amzon to look at other titles of self-help books I could "wittily" re-write, and, well, I failed, because they're kind of hilarious all by themselves, and I could go on about which ones each team member should read, but Gibbs has totally read Stop Telling, Start Leading! and many others, too. I just kind of want crack!fic where Gibbs starts embracing meditation and yoga and starts telling people how many msucles it takes to smile and frown
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Re: 2/3 Gibbs!chreeskoJanuary 18 2010, 02:51:15 UTC
I’d read that fic, ngl. Do you suppose that’s why Gibb didn’t take away McGee’s self-help tapes when he caught him listening to them? Maybe he didn’t want to be a hypocrite. OMG, maybe Gibbs snuck into the office late at night and broke into McGee’s desk and listened to his tapes to help him process his emotions! Or, actually, I bet he ordered them online (and it took him, like, six hours to figure it out) and then he sat in the basement and read them and almost gave up, but then he was like, “No, Gibbs, you must do this. Man up, marine
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Re: 2/3 Gibbs!little_ozzoJanuary 18 2010, 11:21:24 UTC
If we get an episode where Gibbs visibly counts to ten to control his rage, I'm considering this canon. He totally ordered those tapes online, while the rest of the team was doing all the work, and played them while working on his boat. And he ahted them, but he's a Marine, not a quitter, so now he's trying really hard to follow those, like, twenty steps to a more fulfilled life. I bet he had real trouble getting around the concept of "feeling" words.
Oh noes, he does say "real". It makes such a difference, because it does just totally put down Tony in the kind of way that most functional parents would never do - and yes, I think he's totally unaware of it, which is the worst thing - well, the saddest thing, because that's not dislikeable, it's just ... sad. And when Tony was all like, you could have given me some support when I decided to become a cop, I think he is genuinely perplexed that Tony didn't assume his silence was support - like, he really thinks that by not saying anything, he was fulfilling his parenting duties. Which
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Re: 2/3 Gibbs!chreeskoJanuary 27 2010, 20:41:26 UTC
I still can't be coherent about this episode. I love it so much, but it's almost like there is just too much squee material for my brain to handle, so I just sit there and get this dreamy look on my face and take three weeks to reply to comments
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Re: 2/3 Gibbs!little_ozzoJanuary 29 2010, 12:35:09 UTC
Hee, no worries, it's had the opposite effect on me - I keep trying to verbalise my squee and words just fall nonsensically out with no coherence!
I think for him to be so utterly unaware of what he was doing after Tony's mother died as being wrong, that lack of contact had to present even before she died. And, oh, going from a huge amount of attention to barely any must have been hard enough, but if that attention he got in the first place was due to an ulterior motive, not just out of love, even if it crazy-lady love, must be even harder.
Oh, Gibbs! He's always been really awesome, obviously, but there have always been things he's done that make me frustrated with him, because he is so fucked up and when it comes to his team, he's shown really crappy moments of leadership - but then he goes and out-awesomes everyone in this episode (except Tony). When he gets things right, he gets them so very right! My love for him may have fluctuated before, but with this and Faith, it's cemented.
... but maybe he didn't like Tony very much.I
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Re: 2/3 Gibbs!chreeskoFebruary 3 2010, 05:43:11 UTC
Gibbs is so different than he was at the beginning and yet, strangely, he's also more similar than he's been for the past couple of years. I know I've said that I really had a hard time with a slashy relationship between them at the beginning. Actually, I didn't even particularly like Gibbs back then. Objectively, it's awful to work for someone who veers between yelling and saying nothing, expects his employees to have no life whatsoever, and withholds praise and encouragement like he's only got two pieces left and needs to ration. He gave me flashbacks to some awful bosses. But the newer, softer Gibbs will be a better manager because his major issue seemed to be being a bastard and trying to keep people away and not lean on anyone.
I know there's a lot of fic and fanon out there that have Tony and Gibbs having a special bond pretty much from the moment they meet, and I'm totally guilty of thinking this too, but I'm coming round to the idea that it really wasn't the case.Hee. I was actually thinking of your fic when I wrote that,
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I'm trying not get too gloaty and over-the-moony, but this fits what we'd been talking about so very well indeed!
Okay, Tony as conman. It's so perfect, and the difference between him and his father being that Junior is using his powers of deception for good while Senior uses them purely for his own gains - I CANNOT STRESS HOW MUCH I LOVE THAT DISTINCTION, OKAY?!?! I loved meeting his father, but I didn't like his father, not even a little bit. I felt sorry for him, because his wife died and he had no clue what to do and he was probably kind of addicted to lying and maybe didn't know what else to do but keep on lying - but what he does is kind of awful, despite the reasons. And I love that Tony didn't seem to think that, not really - he wasn't happy about his childhood, but he doesn't seem angry about it (although this is Tony, so duh), he just seemed ( ... )
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There was not one single second of this episode that I didn’t love. I almost couldn’t watch it, it was that awesome. They squeezed so much in. Can you believe it was written by the same guys that did South by Southwest? I was so scared they were going to screw it up. (But now I’m irritated with them for being so lazy with the other eps! They could do this, but instead they were giving us that. Work harder, writers ( ... )
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Okay, I did not realise it was written by the SxSW guys, but it was weird because all the cowboy and steak references (none of those writers are vegetarians, clearly) totally made me think about that episode, peripherally, when I was watching! Because even though there are some things I dislike lots about SXSW, that's kind of the first episode that Gibbs shocks himself out of his weird detachment, because he's all terrified Tony's going to leave, and then this one sort of comes full circle: I've never seen Gibbs less detached than he was here ( ... )
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I’ll probably edit this a million billion times because I still can’t be coherent about it. Whenever I try to think about Tony and his father, I just break down into a ridiculous fangirly puddle because OMG! OMG. How could you do that to your own child and not even notice? OMG.
I hadn’t noticed the steak thing, but now that you mention it, there were a couple of similarities between this and SxSw. In addition to being fans of meat, these writers also seem to be fans of cowboys and the Gibbs-Tony-separate-from-the-others dynamic, which is cool. I like the Gibbs-Tony thing better here because it didn’t have the feel of we’re splitting up the team! Also, in retrospect, I would have liked the team being split up in SxSw a lot more if we hadn’t had the Sherriff tagging along - think of the talks they could have had! The two episodes did share the fact that the opening scene was about money. And both had a Gibbs ‘n’ Tony Fireside Chat™. Actually, the more I talk about it, the more SxSw grows on me, sort of. I still don’t like it, but I ( ... )
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So, those writers actually have a great track record, because Heart Break is one of my favourite episodes ever. And, going along with the assumption the writers have planned all of this out (although I trust your analysis far more than I trust their intentions, I don't want to start getting expectations or anything), SxSW and Silent Night were both episodes with small, but really important moments for Gibbs. I can't hate SxSW because I pin so much of my Gibbs characterisation on that one moment on it, but it' ( ... )
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I love that quote, and I guess maybe it does make sense to have it now rather than in S6 because Gibbs is ( ... )
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OMG, Gibbs! Seriously, he has changed so much, and in such a good way! I have never been so happy for a character, ever! He is acknowledging his pain and using it for the good of others! Someone just commented to me elsewhere that he feels like, which put an image in my brain of Gibbs reading self-help books at home, like, Chicken Soup for the Special Agent's Soul and - okay, I just went over to Amzon to look at other titles of self-help books I could "wittily" re-write, and, well, I failed, because they're kind of hilarious all by themselves, and I could go on about which ones each team member should read, but Gibbs has totally read Stop Telling, Start Leading! and many others, too. I just kind of want crack!fic where Gibbs starts embracing meditation and yoga and starts telling people how many msucles it takes to smile and frown ( ... )
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Oh noes, he does say "real". It makes such a difference, because it does just totally put down Tony in the kind of way that most functional parents would never do - and yes, I think he's totally unaware of it, which is the worst thing - well, the saddest thing, because that's not dislikeable, it's just ... sad. And when Tony was all like, you could have given me some support when I decided to become a cop, I think he is genuinely perplexed that Tony didn't assume his silence was support - like, he really thinks that by not saying anything, he was fulfilling his parenting duties. Which ( ... )
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I think for him to be so utterly unaware of what he was doing after Tony's mother died as being wrong, that lack of contact had to present even before she died. And, oh, going from a huge amount of attention to barely any must have been hard enough, but if that attention he got in the first place was due to an ulterior motive, not just out of love, even if it crazy-lady love, must be even harder.
Oh, Gibbs! He's always been really awesome, obviously, but there have always been things he's done that make me frustrated with him, because he is so fucked up and when it comes to his team, he's shown really crappy moments of leadership - but then he goes and out-awesomes everyone in this episode (except Tony). When he gets things right, he gets them so very right! My love for him may have fluctuated before, but with this and Faith, it's cemented.
... but maybe he didn't like Tony very much.I ( ... )
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I know there's a lot of fic and fanon out there that have Tony and Gibbs having a special bond pretty much from the moment they meet, and I'm totally guilty of thinking this too, but I'm coming round to the idea that it really wasn't the case.Hee. I was actually thinking of your fic when I wrote that, ( ... )
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