OMG. OMG. NO SERIOUSLY, OMG. I SAW IT THIS MORNING AND THERE HAVE BEEN SQUEE FIREWORKS IN MY HEAD EVER SINCE! I JUST. I JUST! HOW AWESOME WAS TONY? AND GIBBS? AND TONYANDGIBBS?
I'm trying not get too gloaty and over-the-moony, but this fits what we'd been talking about so very well indeed!
Okay, Tony as conman. It's so perfect, and the difference between him and his father being that Junior is using his powers of deception for good while Senior uses them purely for his own gains - I CANNOT STRESS HOW MUCH I LOVE THAT DISTINCTION, OKAY?!?! I loved meeting his father, but I didn't like his father, not even a little bit. I felt sorry for him, because his wife died and he had no clue what to do and he was probably kind of addicted to lying and maybe didn't know what else to do but keep on lying - but what he does is kind of awful, despite the reasons. And I love that Tony didn't seem to think that, not really - he wasn't happy about his childhood, but he doesn't seem angry about it (although this is Tony, so duh), he just seemed resigned to the fact that his dad is, well, his dad, and he could never do anything about that and won't be able to now. It's so perfect and so sad.
But, but, I love how healthy Tony's attitude about it all was! His face was so wounded and hurt and desperately sorry for Senior, but he was okay with that. He's the most independent person ever - he doesn't need the "I love you", and he doesn't need approval - he'll just get on and do what he does because he's Tony, and he is a giant rubber ball of bouncing recovery! Are shallots particularly hardy? (I'm saving my reply to that for this weekend when I'm not just hyper on love for Tony!)
I love that not everything was totally explained about his mother - how did she die? Was she the love of Senior's life or was she just another way to get money?
And why did Tony become a cop? DID YOU HEAR, THAT AWESOME PART WHERE HE LEANT FORWARD AT DRINKS WITH HIS DAD AND ACTUALLY SAID HE WAS PASSIONATE ABOUT HIS JOB? It's not about the gun - and I love that he uses that line! Again! He's passionate about his job and he's not lying!
HOW DID THIS EPISODE DELIVER SO MUCH AWESOME IN ONLY 41 MINUTES?
And Gibbs! Gibbs, you are so healthy now! Actually volunteering information about your daughter and speaking to people, and looking like he was caught between feeling protective over Tony and sympathetic towards his father - because Gibbs has kind of done the same thing, in some ways, except in reverse: he's never bothered to get to know his own father.
I'm so incoherent right now - if Tony is the fandom shallot, then this is the fandom episode shallot. So many layers, it's just unreal.
1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoJanuary 15 2010, 01:06:10 UTC
EXACTLY! I read a spoiler or two (mostly reactions) before the episode aired here because I thought I would enjoy it more if I weren’t worrying about how bad it was going to be. And everyone was squeeing like crazy about it, and I was just sort of like, “Oh, good, it doesn’t suck.” I really thought people were overreacting. But then I watched it, and I still haven’t fully absorbed it yet! I’m not coherent about it yet so I might come back to your comment later, but for now…
There was not one single second of this episode that I didn’t love. I almost couldn’t watch it, it was that awesome. They squeezed so much in. Can you believe it was written by the same guys that did South by Southwest? I was so scared they were going to screw it up. (But now I’m irritated with them for being so lazy with the other eps! They could do this, but instead they were giving us that. Work harder, writers!)
The scene in the hotel bar? OMG. Just… OMG. Tony’s voice when he said, “Condolences, congratulations, and condolences,” was so grown up and kind of fucked up, too. That whole scene was really painful because… just because. The things they were saying to each other, OMG, and you could tell that part of the reason they were saying those things was because they really didn’t know how to interact in any other way. Also also, how screwed up is Sr? As he was leaving, he was all, “I enjoyed our talk, we should do that more,” and I was just like O.o that was not a healthy father-son talk, dude! It wasn’t! No wonder Tony has issues.
The sad thing is that I think his father showed up with the intention to try, but it was too difficult for him to be honest with his son. There was too much baggage between them and he was fighting his instincts in trying to be honest. You can’t go from sitting on your ass all day every day to running a marathon with no training whatsoever, you know? I mean, you can, but you’d probably have a heart attack and die. Which would be bad. But now Tony has learned to read him and maybe they can take baby steps (even though he did seem pretty irredeemable). OMG how awesome is Tony?
And, oh, I just had another thought: the fact that his father’s name was on Tony’s account as a trustee, OMG, was he stealing from Tony? Is that why he was coming to confess? Oh, dude. Now I’m left alternating between this:
and this:
because nooooo, you can’t steal from your own son! I really, really hope he wasn’t (tell me he wasn't!), but if he was, then he must truly have been desperate. Maybe the recession did him in. (I think I’ve hit rock bottom, too. This episode has reduced me to communicating in macros I stole from ONTD. *sadface*)
I liked Tony’s grown-up-ness in this ep, but it made me sad, too, because I think it was a function of dealing mostly with his father, who did seem kind of like a big kid. I’m a little saddened that he has to be the adult in that relationship. But, OMG, the dynamic where he was all, “No, Dad, I can’t tell you confidential details,” and then caved in two seconds was so sad, too. I think he doesn’t particularly like his father, but he can’t help the compulsion to try to make him happy. D: Really, the whole episode made me want to go back to that Children of Alcoholics book and type the rest of it out. Even if Sr wasn’t an alcoholic, OMG the neglect!
The steak thing came up twice! When they were eating, obviously, but then in the interrogation scene Sr said [whatever the name of the restaurant was] had the best ribeye in town, and Ducky said, “He’s right, they do,” the look on his face was just so Mmmmm, steak. I think someone over there really likes meat.
Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoJanuary 15 2010, 10:11:40 UTC
I was going to be really good and not read anyone's reactions at all before watching it, but I have crappy willpower so that lasted all of ten minutes. But then I was delighted because everyone seemed so happy and then I read about the steak - but even all the fandom glee couldn't actually prepare me for how awesome the episode really was! No, seriously, it was that good! I couldn't believe it!
Okay, I did not realise it was written by the SxSW guys, but it was weird because all the cowboy and steak references (none of those writers are vegetarians, clearly) totally made me think about that episode, peripherally, when I was watching! Because even though there are some things I dislike lots about SXSW, that's kind of the first episode that Gibbs shocks himself out of his weird detachment, because he's all terrified Tony's going to leave, and then this one sort of comes full circle: I've never seen Gibbs less detached than he was here!
OMG, yes, that "talk". I loved Tony's face, at the end, when Senior said that, and Tony just looked confused for a second, like, "What talk? We had words about how maybe we should have a talk, but that was not the talk!" I loved the whole way Tony acted in this scene, like he was expressing all of these things he'd felt as a kid, wanting a closer relationship, but in such a grown-up way. No whining, or dancing about the subject, just: this is how I feel, do you have anything to say to me in response? The saddest thing is I don't think he's even expecting any satisfactory answer, he seems resigned to this conversation not going where he wants it to go, but then the revelation that he missed a wife seems to throw him a little, like he didn't expect that degree of disconnect.
That's exactly the right word for his dad: irredeemable. Because the more I think about it, the more I feel awful for him - he clearly had no clue how to deal with his son back when he was eight, and hasn't really learned anything more now. (I wonder what his own relationship with his father was like.) But at the same time, even though he looks tired, and alone, and like he's clinging to a subterfuge that can't last forever, when he leaves, what Tony first said to him when he was drinking his non-alcoholic beer (OMG, I loved that so much!) is still true: yeah, he was in a difficult position back then, but what he did, "warehousing" his kid in boarding schools and not talking to him, was obviously wrong, and not being able to realise that is unbearably fucked-up. Coming with the intention to tell Tony, though, was either honourable and a sign that maybe he did feel real regret, or ... he was stealing from him.
I think I'm on the side of the first macro - along with Gibbs, if that turned out to be the case - while Tony would probably be on the second one. Macros are necessary in instances like these, because OMG, capslock and over-zealous punctuation don't manage to quite show the glee this episode makes me feel!
I don't know if he was or not. It could be either, I suppose - I don't think Tony would have mentioned that to Gibbs, if it was true, so him not saying it on screen doesn't prove he wasn't - but then, clearly that's an account he uses when he needs it, so surely he would have noticed if money was being skimmed off the top a lot earlier, and have worked out who was behind it then. And he used that money on the account to bail his dad out ... my instinct says no. His dad had a darker side, and seemed baffled by how to behave with his son, but not to the extent that he would find stealing from him justifiable.
I loved that moment when he gave in literally, just to a look! He was such a little kid then, telling his dad because his dad wants to know and also to keep his attention! It was so sweet, even though his dad did look entirely distracted from his son by the thought, presumably, that he might be able to hit Princess Guyliner's dad up for some cash. Tony having to be so mature about his dad, who really does seem like he's never grown up, is so sad and fucked-up, and maybe explains why Tony acts like such a goof all the time - he likes having fun, and playing the subservient kid role, because he never had a chance to do otherwise.
Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoJanuary 18 2010, 17:07:48 UTC
I’ll probably edit this a million billion times because I still can’t be coherent about it. Whenever I try to think about Tony and his father, I just break down into a ridiculous fangirly puddle because OMG! OMG. How could you do that to your own child and not even notice? OMG.
I hadn’t noticed the steak thing, but now that you mention it, there were a couple of similarities between this and SxSw. In addition to being fans of meat, these writers also seem to be fans of cowboys and the Gibbs-Tony-separate-from-the-others dynamic, which is cool. I like the Gibbs-Tony thing better here because it didn’t have the feel of we’re splitting up the team! Also, in retrospect, I would have liked the team being split up in SxSw a lot more if we hadn’t had the Sherriff tagging along - think of the talks they could have had! The two episodes did share the fact that the opening scene was about money. And both had a Gibbs ‘n’ Tony Fireside Chat™. Actually, the more I talk about it, the more SxSw grows on me, sort of. I still don’t like it, but I hate it less and less all the time, especially now that I know they have a happy ending. Like you said, SxSw was the first time in S6 that Gibbs really noticed something was wrong with Tony, so maybe that was when he started inviting Tony over to his house for dinner. They did a good job of bringing the two of them full circle from that point.
This episode was so superior, though, not just for Tony. In SxSw, there were all sorts of dropped threads and anvils and the whole thing felt very disjointed. Here, it was seamless. Hmm, maybe I should be yelling-in-my-head at the director/editors instead of the poor, abused, G/D-loving writers? IMDB says that they also wrote Heart Break, Probie, Stakeout, Silent Night and a few others, which indicates a degree of competence. Ooh, not to get all meta about it, but maybe that disjointedness in SxSw was supposed to reflect where the characters are in their development and the seamlessness of the story here was because they’ve worked it out.
I can only watch the talk in bits and pieces because it’s really kind of awful. When his father said, “I don’t like to advertize my failures,” I felt like maybe he was talking about, IDK, one reason he doesn’t talk to Tony. I don’t think he was talking about Tony because he just said that Tony should have known he approved by his silence! (Which I also don’t really buy - I think the issue there was not that he didn’t know how to express his approval, but rather that his son was a complete non-entity to him.) But I also knew when he said it that Tony would take it as a dig. :-(
See, I thought Tony was surprised that his father’s name was on the account, which implied to me that maybe it wasn’t before. But then I also think, like you said, that he didn’t seem that dark. So, even if his father thought about bad things, and even began the bad things, he couldn’t go through with it. Maybe he was desperate enough to think of it, but at the end of the day, he did actually care about his son enough that there were some lines he wouldn’t cross.
I also loved the mention of the cruise with his frat brothers. It fits in with the idea of the S7 personal renovation project and his attempts to be more sociable, but I also love how he realizes at the end that maybe that isn’t the best way to go about it, or maybe that he doesn’t really need it anymore. (Because he has Gibbs! And they hang out together on the sofa!! ♥) Kind of a nice parallel to the party in the penthouse.
I’m off now to watch last week’s ep. I couldn’t make myself sit through it then because all I could think about, NCIS-wise, was Tony’s backstory ep. I hope it doesn’t suck.
Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoJanuary 20 2010, 15:31:14 UTC
I know. I know. It would be so different if he was being neglectful with a reason for it, but he genuinely seems to have had no qualms about pretty much ignoring his son entirely. When you said he saw Tony as a "non-entity", that totally sums it ups. He genuinely thinks he is the "real" Tony DiNozzo. Junior is literally that, junior to him in every single way, and, by inference, inferior. And he doesn't feel bad about that! I just! What? How can he live like that? He is the most screwed-up person on the show, by a million miles.
So, those writers actually have a great track record, because Heart Break is one of my favourite episodes ever. And, going along with the assumption the writers have planned all of this out (although I trust your analysis far more than I trust their intentions, I don't want to start getting expectations or anything), SxSW and Silent Night were both episodes with small, but really important moments for Gibbs. I can't hate SxSW because I pin so much of my Gibbs characterisation on that one moment on it, but it's still a disjointed, confused episode. Which, if it was meant to be part of the theme, that the characters are totally out of sync, is .... well, it's still not great, but I'll go with it! And I will always love any Gibbs/Tony cowboy/steak moments. Preferably Sherriff-free, though. Poor Lance Henriksen.
All of the Tony/Senior interactiosn were really quite hard to watch, because I think Tony knew what he wanted to say, but was really going into those conversations without any expectations whatsoever. Which is kind of a defense in itself. And his dad just didn't understand, at all - and even when Gibbs talekd to him in the conference room, and it maybe seemed like he started to realise that he'd been treating his son in a less-than-normal, caring way, he didn;t seem to want to try and fix that. He never made a move to try and make things right, he just thought about what he was supposed to say to make it seem like things were right. If that makes any sense. But it was like, he was all about words, then, not actions. And Gibbs, in contrast, is the exact opposite.
I like that idea, too, though, that maybe he had started to think about doing something with Tony's account, because he was that desperate, but then whatever vague morals he did have kicked in, when he saw him, and so he fixed things with the account and decided against doing that. Because doing that really would make him pretty much entirely soulless, and although he did look awfully dark in some of those moments with Gibbs, actually stealing from his son would change my outlook - and, I think, Gibbs', entirely. Although I have a feeling Tony would still not get angry, he'd just be so, so disappointed. Like a parent, which is the wrong way round.
Yes! I loved the mention of him going on his cruise, but also his comment at the end. Because, while I hate to sound age-ist, he is getting a little too old for that - more because I think he's outgrown it, now. And also, what about his celibacy since Jeanne? Has that ended, now? I really hope so - obviously when I'm in a G/D state of mind, I think they're totally sleeping together, but otherwise, I think starting to have sex again would very much be on his list of things to personally renovate. He and Gibbs sit together on the sofa and have manly conversations about their feelings, while sitting next to one another so that they can still avoid eye contact if they really need to!
I think I pretty much loved Ignition when I saw it, but this episode has robbed a lot of my memories of it away! What I do remember is that Palmer was hilarious, like, unbelievably funny and literal, and that McGee was adorable, and Tony and Ziva were actually pretty cutely hilarious in their bored tolerance of his jet-pack obsession.
Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoJanuary 22 2010, 01:58:41 UTC
Heh, lowered expectations do make life a lot simpler -- any surprises can only be good! I wouldn’t count any of those episodes as my favorites, but I really enjoy specific moments from all of them. Looking at them in a list, I can definitely see the tendency the writers have to mix deep and insightful character moments with bits of slapstick. I kind of hate the way they do slapstick, but it seems to be part of their formula, so whatever. Their Tony characterization is still one of my favorites. They see him as a bit of a frat boy but they also write in moments where he does care and is competent, and the other characters slowly discover those sides of him (Heart Break, Probie, Recoil, Silent Night, SxSw). They're the ones who came up with the pre-series long-term relationship for him in Silent Night! They do an excellent job of writing revelations for Gibbs, too, where his manpain doesn’t take over the episode, but we still have little moments of watching him realize new things.
The more I think about SxSw, the more I see what they were aiming for and can appreciate the complexity. I didn't really appreciate the significance of it when you mentioned the comparison before, but after meeting his father, I especially have come to like the contrast in SxSw between how Tony dealt with losing money he never really had and how McGee dealt with the same thing. My favorite moment, though, is the beginning when Ziva and McGee are so out of sync with Tony, followed closely by the campfire scene. Really, the thing I hate most about it at this point is that it made me wish Lance Henriksen would go away, and that is just not right. It was neat, though, to see how someone from someone outside the team reacts to Tony. Given that Tony seems to be the one to clean up Gibbs' public relations messes, it was strange to see that flipped on its head with the Sherriff who would rather dump Tony at the first available opporutnity. Another way in which Tony was out-of-sorts and everything about S6 was upside down and backward.
I feel like I should disclaim this wild speculation with the idea that I know absolutely nothing about trust funds, so I could be way off. I guess the other possibility would be that Tony went all these years without actually drawing on the fund, so he had no idea that his father's name was still on the account. Which is awesome in its own way, because (a) he is that independent and (b) his personal renovation was that important! ILU Tony!!!!
From a slashy perspective, I feel Tony and Gibbs are having sex, but not often. If we were talking about earlier-season Gibbs/DiNozzo, then I would say that yeah, they were doing it early and often. When they were sitting on the couch, though, or at the end of Ignition... they really seemed to enjoy hanging out with one another. They probably got the sex thing out of hte way because it was bothering Tony, but it seems like they both want something different now. He seemed so at home with Gibbs that I think neither of them rely on sex to build a relationship the way I can imagine that Gibbs may have done with his ex-wives. They don't really have anything to hide from each other at this point, you know? From a non-slashy perspective, I don't think Tony has worked his way up to it yet. Maybe I'm projecting, but I see sex as something that comes about for Tony -- given his specific, Jeanne-trust-related problem -- from being in a healthy-ish state of mind. So in order to be able to have that kind of trust (in himself and others), he needs to get to the place he was in life when he was capable of that sort of interaction. He's recreating the environment he had before in order to try and get himself there again. Sort of a twisted version of the idea that people need to do virtuous deeds in order to build or maintain a virtuous character. I think there's also an element of control. We know he's tried to tackle the sex thing and can't, and now he’s doing all other, smaller things because they’re tasks that he can actually accomplish. Fix what you can and worry about the rest later? Maybe if those go well, he'll work his way up. I just don't see him as totally better yet-- getting there, definitely, but he still has some work to do.
Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoJanuary 25 2010, 12:41:30 UTC
I'm not always a fan of the slapstick they use in the show, because it's such a fine line ebtween funny/hitting my embarrassment squick - usually I'm okay with that, because Tony sets himself up as a clown and I love that he can be cringy because of it. I get paranoid sometimes that my Tony!fangirl makes me explain everything he does as either perfect, or the result of his tortured past - but sometimes, he does find things hilarious that make other people go, stop now. My favourite bit of physical humour is Tony putting the holepunch clippings in his cup and driving McGee insane by pretending it's liquid, then "spilling" it over his computers. I will also never get enough marriage jokes. But, yes, the Tony characterisation works so well, because if he wasn't such a frat boy, those small revelatory moments wouldn't be as intense. Those writers also showed how into Paula he was, and how could a teacher he could be with McGee! I forgive them for making him unable to ride a horse. Maybe. They're good at knowing when those moments are needed, too, for Tony and Gibbs - because realistically, working with them, Tony would make me homicidal and Gibbs would turn me into a nervous wreck, but those little moments of awesome/vulnerability make their personalities at their worst much more bearable.
Anything that makes me want Lance Henriksen off my screen is a bad thing. It was cool to see the Sherriff react to Tony like that, because it was so unusual for Gibbs to be the one succeeding socially. Although that Sherriff really was just impolite, too - weirdly, the more I think about that episode, specifically the Sherriff, the more I remember disliking it. To be a total dick and quote Clueless, SxSW is a total Monet - I like the idea of it in general, but on closer examination it drives me a little crazy. (Hello, new levels of ridiculousness.)
You know that quote, the "Everything is upside down," from Gibbs in 7x04? I love that quote, but it feels a little like Gibbs is late to the game. Things in S7 seems to be at least trying to right themselves, but it was S6 when everything was so <>wrong.
My dad's actually an accountant, but when I asked him to explain trust funds in more detail to me, it wasn't successful. He uses long words, it's tax return month, and I think he got suspicious of my motives. But presumably, when he was 21, Tony would have had full access to it, and Senior could have taken his name off at any time. But it makes sense that he didn't know, and maybe didn't use it before now - which makes me wonder what Tony's financial situation is at the moment. How much did that IOU put him back, after interest? I'm pretty sure, given that his income is disposable, that he'll never have to cut back on too many visits to the tailors, but it's interesting.
Sometimes Tony is just so healthy it hurts. (And sometimes, not so much.) That second, non-slashy scenario fits with how he was in Knockout, where he said he was trying to date and get back into relationships - like he was trying out his renovation even then, but wasn't really succeeding. I wouldn't be surprised if having lots of good (vanilla) sex again was his ultimate goal, because he's Tony, but the idea of him working up to that is ace. I have liked his little, half-flirtatious moments, like with the young cop in ... 7x03? With the scarf? Like he's trying, but it wasn't sleazy, just kind of cute and almost tentative, in a charming kind of way. From a slashy POV, I kind of see them the same way. I think a lot of their time together is spent hanging out without sex, sometimes talking, but mostly not talking about anything - and what I loved about that last scene in F&B is that they were talking about something pretty important, but they weren't really looking at one another while they did. I'm still toying with the idea of Gibbs sleeping with Tony in a weird attempt at sexual healing, but at this stage they seem more like very old friends. I'm not making a lot of sense, but their relationship would only be believable to me if it wasn't particularly romantic, like, they're guys, and one of the reasons to be together is that every other option is dead/they fucked up. Any fic where they say "I love you" kind of throws me out of joint.
Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherchreeskoFebruary 5 2010, 19:00:44 UTC
The thing with the clippings in the cup was really funny. I'm trying to work up the nerve to do it to our computer guy, but I'm afraid of what he would do in retaliation. He could take away my internet and never give me new computer equipment again and that would be horrible. I think the slapstick these particular writers work in to the episode can be funny, but they also have a tendency to be a little meaner in some of their jokes than the other writers do. I don't mind because they balance it out with awesome character moments, but it's a little weird, like some part of them is stuck in grade school and the other part has a deep understanding of each character's emotions. I wish Tony were still making marriage jokes, but I do love that he stopped because Gibbs asked him to. ♥
Heh, that quote sums up how I felt about it brilliantly. I think I'd like it more now, but in the midst of all the angst and drama from last season, it seemed like too much. As a Tony fan, it would have been better if they had not bludgeoned us over the head with how horrible everything was for Tony, and either spread the pain around to other characters in that episode or left some of it out.
I can't believe I gave this any thought, but he would owe his cousin a fair amount of money. Depending on how long ago it was and how one does the math, I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that he owed $20-$50,000, maybe more. So, yeah, maybe this withdrawal was prompted by the payment in SxSw. (And, even though I've been discussing how much I dislike it, I do kind of love that these particular writers seem to be following their own threads. ♥) And obviously, this is wild conjecture at this point, but if it was the first time he had used the money, I think it would be yet another sign of him being more comfortable with who he is. Realistically, I would bet that it's not the first time, though, it's probably just the first time that the idiots at the bank confused Jr. and Sr.
The detective with the scarf was adorable. She actually looked a little like the detective in Stakeout (?), who was totally charmed by Tony's dedication to the job. <3 One of the things I find so funny about Tony is that women in law enforcement seem to find him very attractive and charming, sometimes liking him despite themselves, while other women in positions of power/authority (lawyers, McGee's publisher) seem to scare him or think he's a buffoon. I don't know why, but I bet someone somewhere has written a book on the phenomenon.
It seems that Tony and Gibbs have settled into the type of relationship people have when they've been married for a long time, or when they were good friends before they got married. They're comfortable with each other in the way that very good friends are, basically, instead of a wild, passionate kind of love. And also... I think that Gibbs loves Tony (not necessarily in a slashy way), but slashily, I also think that he could never love Tony in the way that he loved Shannon and Kelly. If he had the choice to trade in Tony and have them back, he would do it in a heartbeat. And Tony would be okay with that, maybe. So the stories where they profess their undying love for each other are really OOC because they've both moved past that point in their lives. I could maybe see them sleeping together in the same bed, or possibly even cuddling, but I really, really cannot imagine them having sex.
Or, like, the stories where they call each other "lover." I hate those a really lot.
Re: 1/3 Tony and his fatherlittle_ozzoFebruary 15 2010, 12:27:51 UTC
I remember watching S1 and being only vaguely interested up until the point when Tony made a crack about having a cleaning lady, and it being amazing what he could do without three alimonies - that was the moment I fell in love with him and the show! I can't remember if I've got the episodes out of sequence in my head, and ... right, I'll check that because I literally have no recollection of the order of episodes, but I thought he made a little joke about divorce lawyers after Gibbs asked, like someone said something about them and he was all, "Gibbs, that true?" I love it either way, though - that he stopped making them because Gibbs asked him to, or that he couldn't resist even though Gibbs asked him to. (And as much as I try not to be all fangirly and convinced Tony is Gibbs' super special favourite, he really is the only one that gets away with those marriage cracks. Although, he is also the only one foolish enough to try.)
I love that quote, and I guess maybe it does make sense to have it now rather than in S6 because Gibbs is late to the party - he really didn't realise how shitty things were until it was far too late! And I think I do like it more now, as well, because now it seems like good hindsight, rather than on-the-nose, angsty analysis. With all the crappiness going around, it would have been a little much. And Tony. I'm actually running out of words to show how much I love him, and his angst, but mostly how he deals with the angst.
And, even though I've been discussing how much I dislike it, I do kind of love that these particular writers seem to be following their own threads.
This. I adore that they're so focused on Tony's money problems and where it comes from, and they pretty much gave Tony the rich, English side of his family, right? It seems like they've really thought about Tony's backstory, even back then - and that they were just going to go ahead and do it no matter what other writers thought. It's pretty adorable. I also love their obsession with Tony's obsession with the red Ferrari ... 504? My car knowledge is crap.
She was so cute - and so was Heather Kincaid, the detective he interviewed that, without looking, he remembered was on the volleyball team? I love Ziva, but I thought she was pretty awesome. My non-G/D side kind of wants Tony to have kept her number and called her up, once he was less screwy than he was in T&C. I loved the detective he wins over in The Good Wives Club - by using personal experience to crack a case and being faintly serial-killerish and growling. Now the mystery of his dad has been solved, I'm so interested in his mommy issues.
I know there's so much fic about Tony and Gibbs having really hot, kinky sex, but I think their relationship has been going on so long that really, the two of them starting to sleep together is a little strange, because at this stage, when they're both finally healthy enough to actually start having a real relationship, they're at the stage when the sex would be, like, twentieth on their list of priorities anyway. And saying "I love you" is a little redundant, or not quite as necessary. And massively OOC for both of them, especially with one another. Oh, and they're guys. I'm not trying to be sexist, but there is just no way. They say far more by sharing dip than they could ever do with words. I do buy hot sex more if it's set early in their relationship, like Gibbs breaking Rule #12 pre-series and pre-Hiatus, but if they were screwing around then, it was totally unequal and seriously fucked up.
And yes, Tony will never, ever be equal to Shannon and Kelly, but I think Tony himself would be horrified at even the possibility. I think he's very different to he three ex-wives, too, but nobody will ever be what Shannon was to Gibbs, or even close.
I can barely even cope with Tony calling Gibbs 'Jethro'. It makes me feel weird every time I read it, and even that one time he said it, with Jenny, on the show. Although I didn't mind that quite so much because I always thought Jenny and Tony were a little bit weird and personal about Gibbs behind his back, so it made sense.
I used the wrong icon in the last comment, but eh. I think it actually works.
I loved Gibbs’ reactions throughout the whole thing. He was like a little Healthy Emotions Fairy, running around and bestowing insight and direction to everyone with his magic wand! Even in the conference room, he was blunt but not cruel. He was never mean to Sr, either because he knew that that could have been Tony in another life or he was trying to be respectful of the fact that this was Tony’s father (or both). And, like you said, he did kind of the same thing to his father and he knows it’s not too late for redemption!
Oh, but I did love his little face when Sr was like, “The original Tony DiNozzo!” Throughout that whole interrogation scene, I had the sense that Gibbs was just trying to figure out what kind of man would screw his own kid up so badly. In some ways, Sr was worse than I thought he would be. I really feel like forgetting your kid in Maui because you’re in the throes of some sort of grief-induced alcoholism is not nearly as bad as deliberately leaving your kid alone in Maui to go chasing after a socialite.
But then there was also this twisted thread of… not admiration, exactly, but this guy is where Tony came from! I mean, I felt like Gibbs’ curiosity was running full blast in the interrogation room, but he was so polite and understated. ♥ It seemed like he started out trying not to be too judgmental and to be respectful for Tony’s sake (he didn’t want to make feel like he had to choose *eeeeeeee!* he is so so sososo wonderful!!), but then later he actually sat Sr down to tell him how awesome Tony is because he just wasn’t getting it and it was important. Also, OMG, Tony didn’t tell his father about the plague, and did you see Sr’s face? Like that was the exact moment he realized what a crappy father he was.
Everything else aside, I agree that Gibbs did have a soft spot for Sr. He was just so like Tony. Gibbs probably had some sort of weird internal compulsion to help him. I think Gibbs has an internal DiNozzo Meter that starts pinging when Tony needs help, and having someone who was almost exactly like Tony but colossally more screwed up was driving him nuts. Sr was a cautionary tale of what Tony would have become. I’m so glad he found people who care for him and that he cares about.
It was awesome to see how himself Tony was with Gibbs! OMG, I can’t even. The last time he was like that with anyone in the office was with Jenny after Gibbs ran off in the drowning episode, right? Where he wasn’t necessarily open, but he was just himself without freaking out about something or making jokes to distract someone? ~*~*~*~!!!!!!♥♥ *~*~!!♥!!♥♥ ~~~~***!!!!!****♥♥♥!!!!!!~*~*!!!~*~
… I’m sorry. I don’t know what happened there. I just couldn’t contain myself anymore. Overall, Tony was so serious, especially when he was talking to Gibbs, especially in the second half. He was so ridiculous in the hotel room when Gibbs walked in; he seemed to me to be exuding “LALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” and desperation. OMG Tony, please to be getting some new coping mechanisms! (If he has to be the adult with his father, he was probably desperate for some not-adult time, too.) After Gibbs yelled at him in the hallway that he might bench him, he just got so serious all of a sudden, like he realized that hiding wasn’t going to work. *smishes him* I actually liked that whole bit because I feel like that tension had been building since Gibbs came out of the interrogation room and Tony couldn’t quite look at him right away. I was so worried for him after Gibbs came out of interrogation!
And then! In the scene where he apologized for the hotel room (they were always in MTAC together multiple times ♥♥!), Tony seemed so determined to do The Right Thing. And then he did do the right thing, but it wasn’t the right thing that he was thinking of in the first place. Though he did make his father squirm at the front desk, which was awesome. But it was like Gibbs knew exactly what he needed the whole time and he took such good care of Tony. OMG.
(I think that if I took out all the OMGs and awesomes, this might actually have fit into two comments. Oh well.)
Re: 2/3 Gibbs!little_ozzoJanuary 15 2010, 10:48:26 UTC
I am work, and cannot see any images at all! Grr! I will check your icon choice later! ;-)
OMG, Gibbs! Seriously, he has changed so much, and in such a good way! I have never been so happy for a character, ever! He is acknowledging his pain and using it for the good of others! Someone just commented to me elsewhere that he feels like, which put an image in my brain of Gibbs reading self-help books at home, like, Chicken Soup for the Special Agent's Soul and - okay, I just went over to Amzon to look at other titles of self-help books I could "wittily" re-write, and, well, I failed, because they're kind of hilarious all by themselves, and I could go on about which ones each team member should read, but Gibbs has totally read Stop Telling, Start Leading! and many others, too. I just kind of want crack!fic where Gibbs starts embracing meditation and yoga and starts telling people how many msucles it takes to smile and frown.
But, seriously, the way he was with Tony's father was so perfect. He seemed to just be testing the waters at first, really polite and respectful because this is the guy that created the best young agent he's ever worked with (GLEE GLEE GLEE), but at the same time he seemed disappointed in him, too, because ... this is the guy that created the best young agent he's ever worked with, and he's made a screwed-up job of it. Okay, in the interrogation room, does Senior say he's the "original" or the "real" Tony DiNozzo? I had a feeling it was "real", but I'll check tonight, because the look on Gibbs face at that was a bit taken aback. I think "original" would have been better, but "real" makes me flinch, because most loving parents up their kids rather than themselves, if that makes sense? And then in the conference room, when he was asked what Tony had done now, Gibbs' face was just a bit sad, like, yes, he could see that Senior genuinely had no clue what he had done to his son and how awesome his son had turned out despite that. And then the moment with the plague revelation!!!!!<3<3<3 I have so much love for this scene!
I love that what they said in the previews, about Senior being Tony DiNozzo without a moral rudder, was so true - but I also secretly loved that although Gibbs was super awesome in this, he isn't actually the rudder. Tony's his own rudder, which just - is that not the coolest, most awesome thing ever?!?! And Gibbs tries to become a vague compass for Senior, because of his internal DiNozzo Meter, and I think he did, sort of, get the message across, even if Senior might not follow through.
I adore that Gibbs ahd become the person who Tony trusts enough to be himself with - like, just be himself, not worry about making jokes or hiding things, he was about as honest - without hiding the fact that he was being honest - as we've ever seen him and - if I knew how to make non-clunky hearts, I would make a million, because this episode and the way Gibbs and Tony act together now is just ... I LOVE IT!
Okay, I kind of loved him making a command decision to party, because it was such a Tony-ish thing to do! He like, deliberately distracted himself with pretty girls and yoga - and I totally think it was conscious decision, like he had the choice to break the party up and be super serious, or go a little crazy and try to go into denial. Except yes, he realises that that can't help, and that he is going to have to be the adult at the moment because his father is there and Gibbs is there, and he's stopped needing to hide in front of Gibbs! The leg he had up against the wall otuside interrogation just about killed me, he was such a kid then, and I think that tension with Tony and Gibbs then was both of them kind of waiting to see how Tony was going to deal with this - by using his usual coping mechanisms, or being honest. And he tried out the first one before admitting that it wasn't going to cut it, which Gibbs was pretty much hoping for, and encouraging, all the way through. I love them. I just. OMG.
Re: 2/3 Gibbs!chreeskoJanuary 18 2010, 02:51:15 UTC
I’d read that fic, ngl. Do you suppose that’s why Gibb didn’t take away McGee’s self-help tapes when he caught him listening to them? Maybe he didn’t want to be a hypocrite. OMG, maybe Gibbs snuck into the office late at night and broke into McGee’s desk and listened to his tapes to help him process his emotions! Or, actually, I bet he ordered them online (and it took him, like, six hours to figure it out) and then he sat in the basement and read them and almost gave up, but then he was like, “No, Gibbs, you must do this. Man up, marine!”
No, you're right, he does say "real." I remember now because when he said it, I was like, "Oh no you diin’t! GTFO!" Original, in that context, would have been much more benign than basically saying that your son was a pale imitation of your awesomeness. Man, his father really was such a sad figure. Pretty much everything that came out of his mouth was, in one way or another, a put-down of Tony, yet I’m almost positive he didn’t see anything wrong with it. He apparently loved Tony, but he just really, genuinely thought that he was so much more awesome and talented than his own son. As much as I feel for his father for being so alone, he gave the impression that he sees his son as a defective version of himself. Which is awesome, because he’s pretty damn defective to begin with. It was so great that Gibbs said that he expected to see Sr, instead of going with the usual “Where were you for your child?”
I’m curious about his mother because, on the one hand, how do you go from a father like that to someone like Tony? But on the other hand, she doesn’t sound all that great either, which would make Tony extra super duper awesome because he managed to overcome a dose of crazy from one side and a dose of self-absorbed conman from the other.
Tony is so independent, it’s awesome! I was so proud of him, and I feel like Gibbs was, too. He was his own rudder and his own compass and anything else you would need to navigate the sea! I think he really, fundamentally is a good person, even if he sometimes does stupid things or makes big mistakes and hurts people. He saw his father and at some point made a conscious decision to not be like that. His father never made that choice, and even after his behavior was pointed out to him, I think he had a hard time moving past his resentment. How much of his behavior was because he realized he really did love Tony, and how much was him trying to one-up Gibbs? Btw, what do you think was up with that look Sr shot Gibbs before Abby took him off again? It was so adversarial, but also kind of OMG STOP JUDGING ME. I don’t know.
The fact that he’s not as horrible as his father aside, he really is very self-sufficient, and now we know why. It definitely puts his childish behavior in perspective and, OMG, the one conversation he had with Ziva where they were talking about growing up too fast and she said, “I didn’t have a choice,” and then he was like, “Well, you do now.” ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
I also loved the executive decision to party. I mean, the fact that he did that before trying the honesty thing implies a desire to go with the familiar first. I think, having found something that works, Tony is not one to upset the status quo. He could try this newer, more taxing way of dealing with his stress by talking, or… he could party. Except I love that he has the self-awareness to realize that the partying, at least as it happened, didn’t fix anything. I loved even more that he basically told Gibbs that he hadn’t planned to get caught at it. Did he think Gibbs would take it better if he thought that Tony planned for it to be over before he showed up? Hee. I bet Gibbs was wondering what other shenanigans Tony had gotten away with over the years because Gibbs didn’t show up on time.
Non-clunky hearts can be made by typing “& hearts;” but without the space between “&” and “hearts;” (I think it’s the most useful thing I learned on LJ!)
Re: 2/3 Gibbs!little_ozzoJanuary 18 2010, 11:21:24 UTC
If we get an episode where Gibbs visibly counts to ten to control his rage, I'm considering this canon. He totally ordered those tapes online, while the rest of the team was doing all the work, and played them while working on his boat. And he ahted them, but he's a Marine, not a quitter, so now he's trying really hard to follow those, like, twenty steps to a more fulfilled life. I bet he had real trouble getting around the concept of "feeling" words.
Oh noes, he does say "real". It makes such a difference, because it does just totally put down Tony in the kind of way that most functional parents would never do - and yes, I think he's totally unaware of it, which is the worst thing - well, the saddest thing, because that's not dislikeable, it's just ... sad. And when Tony was all like, you could have given me some support when I decided to become a cop, I think he is genuinely perplexed that Tony didn't assume his silence was support - like, he really thinks that by not saying anything, he was fulfilling his parenting duties. Which does make me think about his mom a lot, because to be ignorant to that degree about how to interact with a kid, after eight years of being a father, he clearly must have had little to no experience with Tony in those eight years. His mother sounds slightly on the other side of crazy, but also like she maybe smothered him, a little - so it was like he went from one extreme to the other - and then, insanely, came out the other side kind of unbelievably functional.
And he did it all by himself! He is like, the least needy person, ever. I am so proud and pleased for him. That is my absolute favourite thing about Tony, though, that fundamentally he is good - he is naturally nice, but because he's also a giant kid (and yes! yes! He is choosing to have fun and act up and generally be a giant goof because he has that choice, and why not?) and he's not superman, he makes mistakes (Jeanne!) and ends up hurting people (Jeanne!) and he hurts himself because I think he uses his hereditary powers of deflection to avoid ever feeling like he's needy. This episode feels like such a giant therapy breakthrough! I saw it said somewhere, regarding Tony making a decision not to be like his father, that maybe his becoming a cop was pretty much exactly doing what his father would never do! Cop/conman. That look Sr. shot Gibbs ... he looked a little threatened, I think, because you know how we talked about Gibbs just not quite understanding Tony, sometimes? I think he understands Sr. much better than he initially did Tony, because maybe Sr. is exactly what you would expect Tony to be, under the deflection and charm, except Tony's surprisingly moral and honest and good, whereas Sr. is self-serving and has built his entire life on lies. And maybe a little bit of Sr. thinking that he and Gibbs are in competition, which, I don't think Gibbs ever set out for it to be like. He kind of presented hismelf to Sr. as an interested party, but with no claim for Tony's affections - possibly because he knows he already has them. Hmm. I don't know. Sr. is so very self-absorbed, but then he did apparently come to see Tony to tell him face-to-face about his money troubles, which suggests he has a tiny moral backbone. Like, half a vertebrae of decency. I just think he doesn't understand quite the extent of Tony's resentment.
Oh, how I laughed when Tony said he didn't think he'd be back for another hour - I also love that it kind of shows that he wasn't going to rely on Gibbs to whack him out of his familiar fallback behaviour of drunkeness and handcuffing pretty girls. He was going to try it, and see what happened, but he pretty much snapped out of it as soon as he saw that his father had complete ignored his request. (Tony said "please", and his dad ignored it. :-( ) I love the idea of Tony goofing off secretly for years without Gibbs knowing - like, he doesn't just act up for attention, he acts up because, well, partying's fun!
Re: 2/3 Gibbs!chreeskoJanuary 27 2010, 20:41:26 UTC
I still can't be coherent about this episode. I love it so much, but it's almost like there is just too much squee material for my brain to handle, so I just sit there and get this dreamy look on my face and take three weeks to reply to comments. ♥
I really do think that his father had little-to-no contact with Tony while his mother was alive. He seemed to think that it was a normal state of affairs (and fulfilling his duty as a father) to completely ignore his son, even immediately after his wife died. Maybe she was unhappy after they married and took refuge in smothering her son and maybe even kept him away from her husband as punishment. :o(
I love the idea of Tony deciding not to be like his father. He did open up to Gibbs at the very end, even though he apparently didn't intend to, so maybe he made an executive decision right then and there to not hide the truth so much, at least not from Gibbs. And, really, I just can't get over how awesome Gibbs was in this episode. The way he stepped in in the squad room to save Tony from being steamrolled by his father! Eeeee! I just. I love him so much! He was just so there for Tony. It makes me a little crazy to think about it.
maybe Sr. is exactly what you would expect Tony to be, under the deflection and charm
I wonder if this explains Gibbs' attitude toward Tony in S1. It definitely fits with what we were discussing before about how it wasn't until S2 that Gibbs grasped the fact that there were layers to Tony. He was dealing with Tony in the way that he would if Tony didn't have anything beneath the surface, maybe? It was working, but not super duper well, but then Kate and McGee joined the team and Gibbs discovered that Tony is awesome and reliable. Like, I think Gibbs had affection for him even in the early days and knew that he was a good investigator (he never would have lasted the two years he did when we met him in S1 otherwise), but maybe he didn't like Tony very much.
Tony said "please", and his dad ignored it.
Ugh, that is so sad. But I love that Tony even asked -- I don't think he would have if Gibbs hadn't been there because I don't know if he would have opened himself up to the possibility that his father would ignore him again if it weren't for Gibbs. I did like that show hit upon that parent-child vibe where, no matter how old you are or how competent you are or how independent you are, your parents will always feel the need to tell you what to do. It's just that other parents don't completely and totally suck at child-rearing, so that when they do tell you what to do when you're 60, it's a mild annoyance instead of yet another instance of your father trampling on your feelings and treating you like an idiot.
I was thinking about when Tony said, "He is who he is," and why he covered for his father. He seemed so resigned throughout the ep that he and his father weren't going to connect. (But he also didn't let it stop him from saying what he needed to say!) Tony probably thought that his father wasn't proud of him and didn't love him, and that's why Sr was so cold and distant. And I bet he has a subconscious need to just please his father and gain his approval that probably explains why Tony couldn't stop himself from reacting the way he did. If he could explain to his father where he was coming from and show him that he was a competent adult, then they could start to resolve their problems. In that context, I think the "I love you" was kind of horrible. Because then it turns out that his father does actually love him and isn't horribly disappointed by him, but still acts in the exact same way he has for Tony's whole entire life. I guess it could have been freeing for Tony to learn that he wasn't the defective one in that relationship, but it has to suck to have absolutely no hope of having a relationship with your father, ever, because your father is not a very good person.
Heh, I thought Gibbs might explode when Tony said that he didn't expect Gibbs for another hour. Just. Why is he so awesome?! How is it even possible? Also, handcuffs Like, not the fake lined cuffs, he used his actual cuffs! Wait, was Tony the one that had the pink fuzzy handcuffs in his desk drawer back in S2 or S3? *!!!!!!!!!!* OMG.
Re: 2/3 Gibbs!little_ozzoJanuary 29 2010, 12:35:09 UTC
Hee, no worries, it's had the opposite effect on me - I keep trying to verbalise my squee and words just fall nonsensically out with no coherence!
I think for him to be so utterly unaware of what he was doing after Tony's mother died as being wrong, that lack of contact had to present even before she died. And, oh, going from a huge amount of attention to barely any must have been hard enough, but if that attention he got in the first place was due to an ulterior motive, not just out of love, even if it crazy-lady love, must be even harder.
Oh, Gibbs! He's always been really awesome, obviously, but there have always been things he's done that make me frustrated with him, because he is so fucked up and when it comes to his team, he's shown really crappy moments of leadership - but then he goes and out-awesomes everyone in this episode (except Tony). When he gets things right, he gets them so very right! My love for him may have fluctuated before, but with this and Faith, it's cemented.
... but maybe he didn't like Tony very much.
I think it could be. I know there's a lot of fic and fanon out there that have Tony and Gibbs having a special bond pretty much from the moment they meet, and I'm totally guilty of thinking this too, but I'm coming round to the idea that it really wasn't the case. I wouldn't be surprised if he instantly thought Tony was a reliable guy with good instincts, and an ability to bounce off Gibbs in a way that caused neither suicidal or homicidal tendencies in either of them, which is why he kept him on for those two years before S1, but it wasn't until S2 that he realised there was more to him than just a good backup. I don't even know if there was an obvious turning point, maybe more of a gradual thing once they got Kate and then McGee. You know in Dead Man Talking, when Tony mentioned being immature the last time he stayed with Gibbs? I think that the previous sleepover not being a good experience might be an indicator that he was still treating Tony as 2D back then, but agreeing to let him stay over - that's maybe a sign he'd spotted at least one layer.
I really love the way they play parent-child vibes in this show. Gibbs, Tony and Ziva all really felt like they were kids in their interactions with their fathers, and all rebelling against them in some way or another. It's just that their parents have clearly had some serious problems with communication, and that's made their children even more defensive when they start interfering or trying to control them than other, more healthily-raised children. The "He is who he is" line definitely pushes for my favourite line of the episode, among many, LOL, but it was just so tiredly accepting.
In that context, I think the "I love you" was kind of horrible. Because then it turns out that his father does actually love him and isn't horribly disappointed by him, but still acts in the exact same way he has for Tony's whole entire life.
I think that's the biggest discovery Tony made - he was at a fairly healthy place in his life, expecting his father to be his usual heartless, uncaring self and dismiss the points - but making them anyway, yes! - but his father then reveals that he does love him, but still dismisses him. Like, when Tony says that "it must have been hard, being left alone ...", he's almost giving his father an out, or an excuse for his behaviour, that he was too devastated by his wife's death to cope with his son competently - but there wasn't any reason at all other than that his dad just isn't nice and doesn't have a clue. God. Devastating. (I'm not even going to try making a point of this right now, because the incoherent squee would be unreal, but Gibbs can be a heartless bastard sometimes too, right - but he at least has his reasons?)
Tony totally did have the fuzzy handcuffs in his drawer in that early season! Ah! I! Just! Gibbs hands in that upside down shot of him from Tony's perspective?!?! Awesome! ♥ ♥
Re: 2/3 Gibbs!chreeskoFebruary 3 2010, 05:43:11 UTC
Gibbs is so different than he was at the beginning and yet, strangely, he's also more similar than he's been for the past couple of years. I know I've said that I really had a hard time with a slashy relationship between them at the beginning. Actually, I didn't even particularly like Gibbs back then. Objectively, it's awful to work for someone who veers between yelling and saying nothing, expects his employees to have no life whatsoever, and withholds praise and encouragement like he's only got two pieces left and needs to ration. He gave me flashbacks to some awful bosses. But the newer, softer Gibbs will be a better manager because his major issue seemed to be being a bastard and trying to keep people away and not lean on anyone.
I know there's a lot of fic and fanon out there that have Tony and Gibbs having a special bond pretty much from the moment they meet, and I'm totally guilty of thinking this too, but I'm coming round to the idea that it really wasn't the case.
Hee. I was actually thinking of your fic when I wrote that, but in a good way. ;) I could go either way on the special bond. I don't think a special bond would necessarily preclude Gibbs from not getting Tony's awesomeness. On the show, Gibbs definitely has an exasperated fondness for Tony as well as a strong desire to never see anything bad happen to him. He just happens to not know him very well at the beginning, which makes sense (sort of, as much as anything on this show does) when considering Gibbs' incredibly screwed up mental state at the time. He was completely denying that his wife and daughter ever existed and had instead buried himself in work. He did get married a few times, but he also simultaneously isolated himself emotionally.
In the scenario you wrote, it makes sense to me that Gibbs would care about Tony and have some weird connection to him (his gut = ♥), but he's basically dealing with a stranger. Maybe some teeny tiny part of Gibbs couldn't help but be resistant to the fact that he was essentially forced together with a stranger because if they didn't do it now, they would never see each other again. But that's just me projecting my issues onto your story, which was totally awesome even without my issues.
Maybe that's a reason that Gibbs was nicer to Sr. He thought he understood where Sr was coming from and that he knew what was underneath his mask. Except he didn't, because Sr was just a horrible father. Maybe he could have changed at one point, but he's spent so many years as the person he is now. I think he can still do it, but it would take him a long time, not just one episode, to change. Tony seemed worn out by the end of F&B, maybe because he really saw his father for the first time. I bet he was really, really happy to get away to Paris for a while.
His hands look so big! I didn’t realize. ♥ I kind of love the idea that Tony started out with the pink, fuzzy ones and graduated to the real cuffs later. :)
I'm trying not get too gloaty and over-the-moony, but this fits what we'd been talking about so very well indeed!
Okay, Tony as conman. It's so perfect, and the difference between him and his father being that Junior is using his powers of deception for good while Senior uses them purely for his own gains - I CANNOT STRESS HOW MUCH I LOVE THAT DISTINCTION, OKAY?!?! I loved meeting his father, but I didn't like his father, not even a little bit. I felt sorry for him, because his wife died and he had no clue what to do and he was probably kind of addicted to lying and maybe didn't know what else to do but keep on lying - but what he does is kind of awful, despite the reasons. And I love that Tony didn't seem to think that, not really - he wasn't happy about his childhood, but he doesn't seem angry about it (although this is Tony, so duh), he just seemed resigned to the fact that his dad is, well, his dad, and he could never do anything about that and won't be able to now. It's so perfect and so sad.
But, but, I love how healthy Tony's attitude about it all was! His face was so wounded and hurt and desperately sorry for Senior, but he was okay with that. He's the most independent person ever - he doesn't need the "I love you", and he doesn't need approval - he'll just get on and do what he does because he's Tony, and he is a giant rubber ball of bouncing recovery! Are shallots particularly hardy? (I'm saving my reply to that for this weekend when I'm not just hyper on love for Tony!)
I love that not everything was totally explained about his mother - how did she die? Was she the love of Senior's life or was she just another way to get money?
And why did Tony become a cop? DID YOU HEAR, THAT AWESOME PART WHERE HE LEANT FORWARD AT DRINKS WITH HIS DAD AND ACTUALLY SAID HE WAS PASSIONATE ABOUT HIS JOB? It's not about the gun - and I love that he uses that line! Again! He's passionate about his job and he's not lying!
HOW DID THIS EPISODE DELIVER SO MUCH AWESOME IN ONLY 41 MINUTES?
And Gibbs! Gibbs, you are so healthy now! Actually volunteering information about your daughter and speaking to people, and looking like he was caught between feeling protective over Tony and sympathetic towards his father - because Gibbs has kind of done the same thing, in some ways, except in reverse: he's never bothered to get to know his own father.
I'm so incoherent right now - if Tony is the fandom shallot, then this is the fandom episode shallot. So many layers, it's just unreal.
Also, steak. <3<3<3
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There was not one single second of this episode that I didn’t love. I almost couldn’t watch it, it was that awesome. They squeezed so much in. Can you believe it was written by the same guys that did South by Southwest? I was so scared they were going to screw it up. (But now I’m irritated with them for being so lazy with the other eps! They could do this, but instead they were giving us that. Work harder, writers!)
The scene in the hotel bar? OMG. Just… OMG. Tony’s voice when he said, “Condolences, congratulations, and condolences,” was so grown up and kind of fucked up, too. That whole scene was really painful because… just because. The things they were saying to each other, OMG, and you could tell that part of the reason they were saying those things was because they really didn’t know how to interact in any other way. Also also, how screwed up is Sr? As he was leaving, he was all, “I enjoyed our talk, we should do that more,” and I was just like O.o that was not a healthy father-son talk, dude! It wasn’t! No wonder Tony has issues.
The sad thing is that I think his father showed up with the intention to try, but it was too difficult for him to be honest with his son. There was too much baggage between them and he was fighting his instincts in trying to be honest. You can’t go from sitting on your ass all day every day to running a marathon with no training whatsoever, you know? I mean, you can, but you’d probably have a heart attack and die. Which would be bad. But now Tony has learned to read him and maybe they can take baby steps (even though he did seem pretty irredeemable). OMG how awesome is Tony?
And, oh, I just had another thought: the fact that his father’s name was on Tony’s account as a trustee, OMG, was he stealing from Tony? Is that why he was coming to confess? Oh, dude. Now I’m left alternating between this:
and this:
because nooooo, you can’t steal from your own son! I really, really hope he wasn’t (tell me he wasn't!), but if he was, then he must truly have been desperate. Maybe the recession did him in. (I think I’ve hit rock bottom, too. This episode has reduced me to communicating in macros I stole from ONTD. *sadface*)
I liked Tony’s grown-up-ness in this ep, but it made me sad, too, because I think it was a function of dealing mostly with his father, who did seem kind of like a big kid. I’m a little saddened that he has to be the adult in that relationship. But, OMG, the dynamic where he was all, “No, Dad, I can’t tell you confidential details,” and then caved in two seconds was so sad, too. I think he doesn’t particularly like his father, but he can’t help the compulsion to try to make him happy. D: Really, the whole episode made me want to go back to that Children of Alcoholics book and type the rest of it out. Even if Sr wasn’t an alcoholic, OMG the neglect!
The steak thing came up twice! When they were eating, obviously, but then in the interrogation scene Sr said [whatever the name of the restaurant was] had the best ribeye in town, and Ducky said, “He’s right, they do,” the look on his face was just so Mmmmm, steak. I think someone over there really likes meat.
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Okay, I did not realise it was written by the SxSW guys, but it was weird because all the cowboy and steak references (none of those writers are vegetarians, clearly) totally made me think about that episode, peripherally, when I was watching! Because even though there are some things I dislike lots about SXSW, that's kind of the first episode that Gibbs shocks himself out of his weird detachment, because he's all terrified Tony's going to leave, and then this one sort of comes full circle: I've never seen Gibbs less detached than he was here!
OMG, yes, that "talk". I loved Tony's face, at the end, when Senior said that, and Tony just looked confused for a second, like, "What talk? We had words about how maybe we should have a talk, but that was not the talk!" I loved the whole way Tony acted in this scene, like he was expressing all of these things he'd felt as a kid, wanting a closer relationship, but in such a grown-up way. No whining, or dancing about the subject, just: this is how I feel, do you have anything to say to me in response? The saddest thing is I don't think he's even expecting any satisfactory answer, he seems resigned to this conversation not going where he wants it to go, but then the revelation that he missed a wife seems to throw him a little, like he didn't expect that degree of disconnect.
That's exactly the right word for his dad: irredeemable. Because the more I think about it, the more I feel awful for him - he clearly had no clue how to deal with his son back when he was eight, and hasn't really learned anything more now. (I wonder what his own relationship with his father was like.) But at the same time, even though he looks tired, and alone, and like he's clinging to a subterfuge that can't last forever, when he leaves, what Tony first said to him when he was drinking his non-alcoholic beer (OMG, I loved that so much!) is still true: yeah, he was in a difficult position back then, but what he did, "warehousing" his kid in boarding schools and not talking to him, was obviously wrong, and not being able to realise that is unbearably fucked-up. Coming with the intention to tell Tony, though, was either honourable and a sign that maybe he did feel real regret, or ... he was stealing from him.
I think I'm on the side of the first macro - along with Gibbs, if that turned out to be the case - while Tony would probably be on the second one. Macros are necessary in instances like these, because OMG, capslock and over-zealous punctuation don't manage to quite show the glee this episode makes me feel!
I don't know if he was or not. It could be either, I suppose - I don't think Tony would have mentioned that to Gibbs, if it was true, so him not saying it on screen doesn't prove he wasn't - but then, clearly that's an account he uses when he needs it, so surely he would have noticed if money was being skimmed off the top a lot earlier, and have worked out who was behind it then. And he used that money on the account to bail his dad out ... my instinct says no. His dad had a darker side, and seemed baffled by how to behave with his son, but not to the extent that he would find stealing from him justifiable.
I loved that moment when he gave in literally, just to a look! He was such a little kid then, telling his dad because his dad wants to know and also to keep his attention! It was so sweet, even though his dad did look entirely distracted from his son by the thought, presumably, that he might be able to hit Princess Guyliner's dad up for some cash. Tony having to be so mature about his dad, who really does seem like he's never grown up, is so sad and fucked-up, and maybe explains why Tony acts like such a goof all the time - he likes having fun, and playing the subservient kid role, because he never had a chance to do otherwise.
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I’ll probably edit this a million billion times because I still can’t be coherent about it. Whenever I try to think about Tony and his father, I just break down into a ridiculous fangirly puddle because OMG! OMG. How could you do that to your own child and not even notice? OMG.
I hadn’t noticed the steak thing, but now that you mention it, there were a couple of similarities between this and SxSw. In addition to being fans of meat, these writers also seem to be fans of cowboys and the Gibbs-Tony-separate-from-the-others dynamic, which is cool. I like the Gibbs-Tony thing better here because it didn’t have the feel of we’re splitting up the team! Also, in retrospect, I would have liked the team being split up in SxSw a lot more if we hadn’t had the Sherriff tagging along - think of the talks they could have had! The two episodes did share the fact that the opening scene was about money. And both had a Gibbs ‘n’ Tony Fireside Chat™. Actually, the more I talk about it, the more SxSw grows on me, sort of. I still don’t like it, but I hate it less and less all the time, especially now that I know they have a happy ending. Like you said, SxSw was the first time in S6 that Gibbs really noticed something was wrong with Tony, so maybe that was when he started inviting Tony over to his house for dinner. They did a good job of bringing the two of them full circle from that point.
This episode was so superior, though, not just for Tony. In SxSw, there were all sorts of dropped threads and anvils and the whole thing felt very disjointed. Here, it was seamless. Hmm, maybe I should be yelling-in-my-head at the director/editors instead of the poor, abused, G/D-loving writers? IMDB says that they also wrote Heart Break, Probie, Stakeout, Silent Night and a few others, which indicates a degree of competence. Ooh, not to get all meta about it, but maybe that disjointedness in SxSw was supposed to reflect where the characters are in their development and the seamlessness of the story here was because they’ve worked it out.
I can only watch the talk in bits and pieces because it’s really kind of awful. When his father said, “I don’t like to advertize my failures,” I felt like maybe he was talking about, IDK, one reason he doesn’t talk to Tony. I don’t think he was talking about Tony because he just said that Tony should have known he approved by his silence! (Which I also don’t really buy - I think the issue there was not that he didn’t know how to express his approval, but rather that his son was a complete non-entity to him.) But I also knew when he said it that Tony would take it as a dig. :-(
See, I thought Tony was surprised that his father’s name was on the account, which implied to me that maybe it wasn’t before. But then I also think, like you said, that he didn’t seem that dark. So, even if his father thought about bad things, and even began the bad things, he couldn’t go through with it. Maybe he was desperate enough to think of it, but at the end of the day, he did actually care about his son enough that there were some lines he wouldn’t cross.
I also loved the mention of the cruise with his frat brothers. It fits in with the idea of the S7 personal renovation project and his attempts to be more sociable, but I also love how he realizes at the end that maybe that isn’t the best way to go about it, or maybe that he doesn’t really need it anymore. (Because he has Gibbs! And they hang out together on the sofa!! ♥) Kind of a nice parallel to the party in the penthouse.
I’m off now to watch last week’s ep. I couldn’t make myself sit through it then because all I could think about, NCIS-wise, was Tony’s backstory ep. I hope it doesn’t suck.
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So, those writers actually have a great track record, because Heart Break is one of my favourite episodes ever. And, going along with the assumption the writers have planned all of this out (although I trust your analysis far more than I trust their intentions, I don't want to start getting expectations or anything), SxSW and Silent Night were both episodes with small, but really important moments for Gibbs. I can't hate SxSW because I pin so much of my Gibbs characterisation on that one moment on it, but it's still a disjointed, confused episode. Which, if it was meant to be part of the theme, that the characters are totally out of sync, is .... well, it's still not great, but I'll go with it! And I will always love any Gibbs/Tony cowboy/steak moments. Preferably Sherriff-free, though. Poor Lance Henriksen.
All of the Tony/Senior interactiosn were really quite hard to watch, because I think Tony knew what he wanted to say, but was really going into those conversations without any expectations whatsoever. Which is kind of a defense in itself. And his dad just didn't understand, at all - and even when Gibbs talekd to him in the conference room, and it maybe seemed like he started to realise that he'd been treating his son in a less-than-normal, caring way, he didn;t seem to want to try and fix that. He never made a move to try and make things right, he just thought about what he was supposed to say to make it seem like things were right. If that makes any sense. But it was like, he was all about words, then, not actions. And Gibbs, in contrast, is the exact opposite.
I like that idea, too, though, that maybe he had started to think about doing something with Tony's account, because he was that desperate, but then whatever vague morals he did have kicked in, when he saw him, and so he fixed things with the account and decided against doing that. Because doing that really would make him pretty much entirely soulless, and although he did look awfully dark in some of those moments with Gibbs, actually stealing from his son would change my outlook - and, I think, Gibbs', entirely. Although I have a feeling Tony would still not get angry, he'd just be so, so disappointed. Like a parent, which is the wrong way round.
Yes! I loved the mention of him going on his cruise, but also his comment at the end. Because, while I hate to sound age-ist, he is getting a little too old for that - more because I think he's outgrown it, now. And also, what about his celibacy since Jeanne? Has that ended, now? I really hope so - obviously when I'm in a G/D state of mind, I think they're totally sleeping together, but otherwise, I think starting to have sex again would very much be on his list of things to personally renovate. He and Gibbs sit together on the sofa and have manly conversations about their feelings, while sitting next to one another so that they can still avoid eye contact if they really need to!
I think I pretty much loved Ignition when I saw it, but this episode has robbed a lot of my memories of it away! What I do remember is that Palmer was hilarious, like, unbelievably funny and literal, and that McGee was adorable, and Tony and Ziva were actually pretty cutely hilarious in their bored tolerance of his jet-pack obsession.
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The more I think about SxSw, the more I see what they were aiming for and can appreciate the complexity. I didn't really appreciate the significance of it when you mentioned the comparison before, but after meeting his father, I especially have come to like the contrast in SxSw between how Tony dealt with losing money he never really had and how McGee dealt with the same thing. My favorite moment, though, is the beginning when Ziva and McGee are so out of sync with Tony, followed closely by the campfire scene. Really, the thing I hate most about it at this point is that it made me wish Lance Henriksen would go away, and that is just not right. It was neat, though, to see how someone from someone outside the team reacts to Tony. Given that Tony seems to be the one to clean up Gibbs' public relations messes, it was strange to see that flipped on its head with the Sherriff who would rather dump Tony at the first available opporutnity. Another way in which Tony was out-of-sorts and everything about S6 was upside down and backward.
I feel like I should disclaim this wild speculation with the idea that I know absolutely nothing about trust funds, so I could be way off. I guess the other possibility would be that Tony went all these years without actually drawing on the fund, so he had no idea that his father's name was still on the account. Which is awesome in its own way, because (a) he is that independent and (b) his personal renovation was that important! ILU Tony!!!!
From a slashy perspective, I feel Tony and Gibbs are having sex, but not often. If we were talking about earlier-season Gibbs/DiNozzo, then I would say that yeah, they were doing it early and often. When they were sitting on the couch, though, or at the end of Ignition... they really seemed to enjoy hanging out with one another. They probably got the sex thing out of hte way because it was bothering Tony, but it seems like they both want something different now. He seemed so at home with Gibbs that I think neither of them rely on sex to build a relationship the way I can imagine that Gibbs may have done with his ex-wives. They don't really have anything to hide from each other at this point, you know? From a non-slashy perspective, I don't think Tony has worked his way up to it yet. Maybe I'm projecting, but I see sex as something that comes about for Tony -- given his specific, Jeanne-trust-related problem -- from being in a healthy-ish state of mind. So in order to be able to have that kind of trust (in himself and others), he needs to get to the place he was in life when he was capable of that sort of interaction. He's recreating the environment he had before in order to try and get himself there again. Sort of a twisted version of the idea that people need to do virtuous deeds in order to build or maintain a virtuous character. I think there's also an element of control. We know he's tried to tackle the sex thing and can't, and now he’s doing all other, smaller things because they’re tasks that he can actually accomplish. Fix what you can and worry about the rest later? Maybe if those go well, he'll work his way up. I just don't see him as totally better yet-- getting there, definitely, but he still has some work to do.
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Anything that makes me want Lance Henriksen off my screen is a bad thing. It was cool to see the Sherriff react to Tony like that, because it was so unusual for Gibbs to be the one succeeding socially. Although that Sherriff really was just impolite, too - weirdly, the more I think about that episode, specifically the Sherriff, the more I remember disliking it. To be a total dick and quote Clueless, SxSW is a total Monet - I like the idea of it in general, but on closer examination it drives me a little crazy. (Hello, new levels of ridiculousness.)
You know that quote, the "Everything is upside down," from Gibbs in 7x04? I love that quote, but it feels a little like Gibbs is late to the game. Things in S7 seems to be at least trying to right themselves, but it was S6 when everything was so <>wrong.
My dad's actually an accountant, but when I asked him to explain trust funds in more detail to me, it wasn't successful. He uses long words, it's tax return month, and I think he got suspicious of my motives. But presumably, when he was 21, Tony would have had full access to it, and Senior could have taken his name off at any time. But it makes sense that he didn't know, and maybe didn't use it before now - which makes me wonder what Tony's financial situation is at the moment. How much did that IOU put him back, after interest? I'm pretty sure, given that his income is disposable, that he'll never have to cut back on too many visits to the tailors, but it's interesting.
Sometimes Tony is just so healthy it hurts. (And sometimes, not so much.) That second, non-slashy scenario fits with how he was in Knockout, where he said he was trying to date and get back into relationships - like he was trying out his renovation even then, but wasn't really succeeding. I wouldn't be surprised if having lots of good (vanilla) sex again was his ultimate goal, because he's Tony, but the idea of him working up to that is ace. I have liked his little, half-flirtatious moments, like with the young cop in ... 7x03? With the scarf? Like he's trying, but it wasn't sleazy, just kind of cute and almost tentative, in a charming kind of way. From a slashy POV, I kind of see them the same way. I think a lot of their time together is spent hanging out without sex, sometimes talking, but mostly not talking about anything - and what I loved about that last scene in F&B is that they were talking about something pretty important, but they weren't really looking at one another while they did. I'm still toying with the idea of Gibbs sleeping with Tony in a weird attempt at sexual healing, but at this stage they seem more like very old friends. I'm not making a lot of sense, but their relationship would only be believable to me if it wasn't particularly romantic, like, they're guys, and one of the reasons to be together is that every other option is dead/they fucked up. Any fic where they say "I love you" kind of throws me out of joint.
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Heh, that quote sums up how I felt about it brilliantly. I think I'd like it more now, but in the midst of all the angst and drama from last season, it seemed like too much. As a Tony fan, it would have been better if they had not bludgeoned us over the head with how horrible everything was for Tony, and either spread the pain around to other characters in that episode or left some of it out.
I can't believe I gave this any thought, but he would owe his cousin a fair amount of money. Depending on how long ago it was and how one does the math, I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that he owed $20-$50,000, maybe more. So, yeah, maybe this withdrawal was prompted by the payment in SxSw. (And, even though I've been discussing how much I dislike it, I do kind of love that these particular writers seem to be following their own threads. ♥) And obviously, this is wild conjecture at this point, but if it was the first time he had used the money, I think it would be yet another sign of him being more comfortable with who he is. Realistically, I would bet that it's not the first time, though, it's probably just the first time that the idiots at the bank confused Jr. and Sr.
The detective with the scarf was adorable. She actually looked a little like the detective in Stakeout (?), who was totally charmed by Tony's dedication to the job. <3 One of the things I find so funny about Tony is that women in law enforcement seem to find him very attractive and charming, sometimes liking him despite themselves, while other women in positions of power/authority (lawyers, McGee's publisher) seem to scare him or think he's a buffoon. I don't know why, but I bet someone somewhere has written a book on the phenomenon.
It seems that Tony and Gibbs have settled into the type of relationship people have when they've been married for a long time, or when they were good friends before they got married. They're comfortable with each other in the way that very good friends are, basically, instead of a wild, passionate kind of love. And also... I think that Gibbs loves Tony (not necessarily in a slashy way), but slashily, I also think that he could never love Tony in the way that he loved Shannon and Kelly. If he had the choice to trade in Tony and have them back, he would do it in a heartbeat. And Tony would be okay with that, maybe. So the stories where they profess their undying love for each other are really OOC because they've both moved past that point in their lives. I could maybe see them sleeping together in the same bed, or possibly even cuddling, but I really, really cannot imagine them having sex.
Or, like, the stories where they call each other "lover." I hate those a really lot.
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I love that quote, and I guess maybe it does make sense to have it now rather than in S6 because Gibbs is late to the party - he really didn't realise how shitty things were until it was far too late! And I think I do like it more now, as well, because now it seems like good hindsight, rather than on-the-nose, angsty analysis. With all the crappiness going around, it would have been a little much. And Tony. I'm actually running out of words to show how much I love him, and his angst, but mostly how he deals with the angst.
And, even though I've been discussing how much I dislike it, I do kind of love that these particular writers seem to be following their own threads.
This. I adore that they're so focused on Tony's money problems and where it comes from, and they pretty much gave Tony the rich, English side of his family, right? It seems like they've really thought about Tony's backstory, even back then - and that they were just going to go ahead and do it no matter what other writers thought. It's pretty adorable. I also love their obsession with Tony's obsession with the red Ferrari ... 504? My car knowledge is crap.
She was so cute - and so was Heather Kincaid, the detective he interviewed that, without looking, he remembered was on the volleyball team? I love Ziva, but I thought she was pretty awesome. My non-G/D side kind of wants Tony to have kept her number and called her up, once he was less screwy than he was in T&C. I loved the detective he wins over in The Good Wives Club - by using personal experience to crack a case and being faintly serial-killerish and growling. Now the mystery of his dad has been solved, I'm so interested in his mommy issues.
I know there's so much fic about Tony and Gibbs having really hot, kinky sex, but I think their relationship has been going on so long that really, the two of them starting to sleep together is a little strange, because at this stage, when they're both finally healthy enough to actually start having a real relationship, they're at the stage when the sex would be, like, twentieth on their list of priorities anyway. And saying "I love you" is a little redundant, or not quite as necessary. And massively OOC for both of them, especially with one another. Oh, and they're guys. I'm not trying to be sexist, but there is just no way. They say far more by sharing dip than they could ever do with words. I do buy hot sex more if it's set early in their relationship, like Gibbs breaking Rule #12 pre-series and pre-Hiatus, but if they were screwing around then, it was totally unequal and seriously fucked up.
And yes, Tony will never, ever be equal to Shannon and Kelly, but I think Tony himself would be horrified at even the possibility. I think he's very different to he three ex-wives, too, but nobody will ever be what Shannon was to Gibbs, or even close.
I can barely even cope with Tony calling Gibbs 'Jethro'. It makes me feel weird every time I read it, and even that one time he said it, with Jenny, on the show. Although I didn't mind that quite so much because I always thought Jenny and Tony were a little bit weird and personal about Gibbs behind his back, so it made sense.
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I loved Gibbs’ reactions throughout the whole thing. He was like a little Healthy Emotions Fairy, running around and bestowing insight and direction to everyone with his magic wand! Even in the conference room, he was blunt but not cruel. He was never mean to Sr, either because he knew that that could have been Tony in another life or he was trying to be respectful of the fact that this was Tony’s father (or both). And, like you said, he did kind of the same thing to his father and he knows it’s not too late for redemption!
Oh, but I did love his little face when Sr was like, “The original Tony DiNozzo!” Throughout that whole interrogation scene, I had the sense that Gibbs was just trying to figure out what kind of man would screw his own kid up so badly. In some ways, Sr was worse than I thought he would be. I really feel like forgetting your kid in Maui because you’re in the throes of some sort of grief-induced alcoholism is not nearly as bad as deliberately leaving your kid alone in Maui to go chasing after a socialite.
But then there was also this twisted thread of… not admiration, exactly, but this guy is where Tony came from! I mean, I felt like Gibbs’ curiosity was running full blast in the interrogation room, but he was so polite and understated. ♥ It seemed like he started out trying not to be too judgmental and to be respectful for Tony’s sake (he didn’t want to make feel like he had to choose *eeeeeeee!* he is so so sososo wonderful!!), but then later he actually sat Sr down to tell him how awesome Tony is because he just wasn’t getting it and it was important. Also, OMG, Tony didn’t tell his father about the plague, and did you see Sr’s face? Like that was the exact moment he realized what a crappy father he was.
Everything else aside, I agree that Gibbs did have a soft spot for Sr. He was just so like Tony. Gibbs probably had some sort of weird internal compulsion to help him. I think Gibbs has an internal DiNozzo Meter that starts pinging when Tony needs help, and having someone who was almost exactly like Tony but colossally more screwed up was driving him nuts. Sr was a cautionary tale of what Tony would have become. I’m so glad he found people who care for him and that he cares about.
It was awesome to see how himself Tony was with Gibbs! OMG, I can’t even. The last time he was like that with anyone in the office was with Jenny after Gibbs ran off in the drowning episode, right? Where he wasn’t necessarily open, but he was just himself without freaking out about something or making jokes to distract someone? ~*~*~*~!!!!!!♥♥ *~*~!!♥!!♥♥ ~~~~***!!!!!****♥♥♥!!!!!!~*~*!!!~*~
… I’m sorry. I don’t know what happened there. I just couldn’t contain myself anymore. Overall, Tony was so serious, especially when he was talking to Gibbs, especially in the second half. He was so ridiculous in the hotel room when Gibbs walked in; he seemed to me to be exuding “LALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” and desperation. OMG Tony, please to be getting some new coping mechanisms! (If he has to be the adult with his father, he was probably desperate for some not-adult time, too.) After Gibbs yelled at him in the hallway that he might bench him, he just got so serious all of a sudden, like he realized that hiding wasn’t going to work. *smishes him* I actually liked that whole bit because I feel like that tension had been building since Gibbs came out of the interrogation room and Tony couldn’t quite look at him right away. I was so worried for him after Gibbs came out of interrogation!
And then! In the scene where he apologized for the hotel room (they were always in MTAC together multiple times ♥♥!), Tony seemed so determined to do The Right Thing. And then he did do the right thing, but it wasn’t the right thing that he was thinking of in the first place. Though he did make his father squirm at the front desk, which was awesome. But it was like Gibbs knew exactly what he needed the whole time and he took such good care of Tony. OMG.
(I think that if I took out all the OMGs and awesomes, this might actually have fit into two comments. Oh well.)
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OMG, Gibbs! Seriously, he has changed so much, and in such a good way! I have never been so happy for a character, ever! He is acknowledging his pain and using it for the good of others! Someone just commented to me elsewhere that he feels like, which put an image in my brain of Gibbs reading self-help books at home, like, Chicken Soup for the Special Agent's Soul and - okay, I just went over to Amzon to look at other titles of self-help books I could "wittily" re-write, and, well, I failed, because they're kind of hilarious all by themselves, and I could go on about which ones each team member should read, but Gibbs has totally read Stop Telling, Start Leading! and many others, too. I just kind of want crack!fic where Gibbs starts embracing meditation and yoga and starts telling people how many msucles it takes to smile and frown.
But, seriously, the way he was with Tony's father was so perfect. He seemed to just be testing the waters at first, really polite and respectful because this is the guy that created the best young agent he's ever worked with (GLEE GLEE GLEE), but at the same time he seemed disappointed in him, too, because ... this is the guy that created the best young agent he's ever worked with, and he's made a screwed-up job of it. Okay, in the interrogation room, does Senior say he's the "original" or the "real" Tony DiNozzo? I had a feeling it was "real", but I'll check tonight, because the look on Gibbs face at that was a bit taken aback. I think "original" would have been better, but "real" makes me flinch, because most loving parents up their kids rather than themselves, if that makes sense? And then in the conference room, when he was asked what Tony had done now, Gibbs' face was just a bit sad, like, yes, he could see that Senior genuinely had no clue what he had done to his son and how awesome his son had turned out despite that. And then the moment with the plague revelation!!!!!<3<3<3 I have so much love for this scene!
I love that what they said in the previews, about Senior being Tony DiNozzo without a moral rudder, was so true - but I also secretly loved that although Gibbs was super awesome in this, he isn't actually the rudder. Tony's his own rudder, which just - is that not the coolest, most awesome thing ever?!?! And Gibbs tries to become a vague compass for Senior, because of his internal DiNozzo Meter, and I think he did, sort of, get the message across, even if Senior might not follow through.
I adore that Gibbs ahd become the person who Tony trusts enough to be himself with - like, just be himself, not worry about making jokes or hiding things, he was about as honest - without hiding the fact that he was being honest - as we've ever seen him and - if I knew how to make non-clunky hearts, I would make a million, because this episode and the way Gibbs and Tony act together now is just ... I LOVE IT!
Okay, I kind of loved him making a command decision to party, because it was such a Tony-ish thing to do! He like, deliberately distracted himself with pretty girls and yoga - and I totally think it was conscious decision, like he had the choice to break the party up and be super serious, or go a little crazy and try to go into denial. Except yes, he realises that that can't help, and that he is going to have to be the adult at the moment because his father is there and Gibbs is there, and he's stopped needing to hide in front of Gibbs! The leg he had up against the wall otuside interrogation just about killed me, he was such a kid then, and I think that tension with Tony and Gibbs then was both of them kind of waiting to see how Tony was going to deal with this - by using his usual coping mechanisms, or being honest. And he tried out the first one before admitting that it wasn't going to cut it, which Gibbs was pretty much hoping for, and encouraging, all the way through. I love them. I just. OMG.
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No, you're right, he does say "real." I remember now because when he said it, I was like, "Oh no you diin’t! GTFO!" Original, in that context, would have been much more benign than basically saying that your son was a pale imitation of your awesomeness. Man, his father really was such a sad figure. Pretty much everything that came out of his mouth was, in one way or another, a put-down of Tony, yet I’m almost positive he didn’t see anything wrong with it. He apparently loved Tony, but he just really, genuinely thought that he was so much more awesome and talented than his own son. As much as I feel for his father for being so alone, he gave the impression that he sees his son as a defective version of himself. Which is awesome, because he’s pretty damn defective to begin with. It was so great that Gibbs said that he expected to see Sr, instead of going with the usual “Where were you for your child?”
I’m curious about his mother because, on the one hand, how do you go from a father like that to someone like Tony? But on the other hand, she doesn’t sound all that great either, which would make Tony extra super duper awesome because he managed to overcome a dose of crazy from one side and a dose of self-absorbed conman from the other.
Tony is so independent, it’s awesome! I was so proud of him, and I feel like Gibbs was, too. He was his own rudder and his own compass and anything else you would need to navigate the sea! I think he really, fundamentally is a good person, even if he sometimes does stupid things or makes big mistakes and hurts people. He saw his father and at some point made a conscious decision to not be like that. His father never made that choice, and even after his behavior was pointed out to him, I think he had a hard time moving past his resentment. How much of his behavior was because he realized he really did love Tony, and how much was him trying to one-up Gibbs? Btw, what do you think was up with that look Sr shot Gibbs before Abby took him off again? It was so adversarial, but also kind of OMG STOP JUDGING ME. I don’t know.
The fact that he’s not as horrible as his father aside, he really is very self-sufficient, and now we know why. It definitely puts his childish behavior in perspective and, OMG, the one conversation he had with Ziva where they were talking about growing up too fast and she said, “I didn’t have a choice,” and then he was like, “Well, you do now.” ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
I also loved the executive decision to party. I mean, the fact that he did that before trying the honesty thing implies a desire to go with the familiar first. I think, having found something that works, Tony is not one to upset the status quo. He could try this newer, more taxing way of dealing with his stress by talking, or… he could party. Except I love that he has the self-awareness to realize that the partying, at least as it happened, didn’t fix anything. I loved even more that he basically told Gibbs that he hadn’t planned to get caught at it. Did he think Gibbs would take it better if he thought that Tony planned for it to be over before he showed up? Hee. I bet Gibbs was wondering what other shenanigans Tony had gotten away with over the years because Gibbs didn’t show up on time.
Non-clunky hearts can be made by typing “& hearts;” but without the space between “&” and “hearts;” (I think it’s the most useful thing I learned on LJ!)
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Oh noes, he does say "real". It makes such a difference, because it does just totally put down Tony in the kind of way that most functional parents would never do - and yes, I think he's totally unaware of it, which is the worst thing - well, the saddest thing, because that's not dislikeable, it's just ... sad. And when Tony was all like, you could have given me some support when I decided to become a cop, I think he is genuinely perplexed that Tony didn't assume his silence was support - like, he really thinks that by not saying anything, he was fulfilling his parenting duties. Which does make me think about his mom a lot, because to be ignorant to that degree about how to interact with a kid, after eight years of being a father, he clearly must have had little to no experience with Tony in those eight years. His mother sounds slightly on the other side of crazy, but also like she maybe smothered him, a little - so it was like he went from one extreme to the other - and then, insanely, came out the other side kind of unbelievably functional.
And he did it all by himself! He is like, the least needy person, ever. I am so proud and pleased for him. That is my absolute favourite thing about Tony, though, that fundamentally he is good - he is naturally nice, but because he's also a giant kid (and yes! yes! He is choosing to have fun and act up and generally be a giant goof because he has that choice, and why not?) and he's not superman, he makes mistakes (Jeanne!) and ends up hurting people (Jeanne!) and he hurts himself because I think he uses his hereditary powers of deflection to avoid ever feeling like he's needy. This episode feels like such a giant therapy breakthrough! I saw it said somewhere, regarding Tony making a decision not to be like his father, that maybe his becoming a cop was pretty much exactly doing what his father would never do! Cop/conman.
That look Sr. shot Gibbs ... he looked a little threatened, I think, because you know how we talked about Gibbs just not quite understanding Tony, sometimes? I think he understands Sr. much better than he initially did Tony, because maybe Sr. is exactly what you would expect Tony to be, under the deflection and charm, except Tony's surprisingly moral and honest and good, whereas Sr. is self-serving and has built his entire life on lies. And maybe a little bit of Sr. thinking that he and Gibbs are in competition, which, I don't think Gibbs ever set out for it to be like. He kind of presented hismelf to Sr. as an interested party, but with no claim for Tony's affections - possibly because he knows he already has them. Hmm. I don't know. Sr. is so very self-absorbed, but then he did apparently come to see Tony to tell him face-to-face about his money troubles, which suggests he has a tiny moral backbone. Like, half a vertebrae of decency. I just think he doesn't understand quite the extent of Tony's resentment.
Oh, how I laughed when Tony said he didn't think he'd be back for another hour - I also love that it kind of shows that he wasn't going to rely on Gibbs to whack him out of his familiar fallback behaviour of drunkeness and handcuffing pretty girls. He was going to try it, and see what happened, but he pretty much snapped out of it as soon as he saw that his father had complete ignored his request. (Tony said "please", and his dad ignored it. :-( ) I love the idea of Tony goofing off secretly for years without Gibbs knowing - like, he doesn't just act up for attention, he acts up because, well, partying's fun!
♥♥♥Oh, Tony!♥♥♥ (Thank you!)
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I really do think that his father had little-to-no contact with Tony while his mother was alive. He seemed to think that it was a normal state of affairs (and fulfilling his duty as a father) to completely ignore his son, even immediately after his wife died. Maybe she was unhappy after they married and took refuge in smothering her son and maybe even kept him away from her husband as punishment. :o(
I love the idea of Tony deciding not to be like his father. He did open up to Gibbs at the very end, even though he apparently didn't intend to, so maybe he made an executive decision right then and there to not hide the truth so much, at least not from Gibbs. And, really, I just can't get over how awesome Gibbs was in this episode. The way he stepped in in the squad room to save Tony from being steamrolled by his father! Eeeee! I just. I love him so much! He was just so there for Tony. It makes me a little crazy to think about it.
maybe Sr. is exactly what you would expect Tony to be, under the deflection and charm
I wonder if this explains Gibbs' attitude toward Tony in S1. It definitely fits with what we were discussing before about how it wasn't until S2 that Gibbs grasped the fact that there were layers to Tony. He was dealing with Tony in the way that he would if Tony didn't have anything beneath the surface, maybe? It was working, but not super duper well, but then Kate and McGee joined the team and Gibbs discovered that Tony is awesome and reliable. Like, I think Gibbs had affection for him even in the early days and knew that he was a good investigator (he never would have lasted the two years he did when we met him in S1 otherwise), but maybe he didn't like Tony very much.
Tony said "please", and his dad ignored it.
Ugh, that is so sad. But I love that Tony even asked -- I don't think he would have if Gibbs hadn't been there because I don't know if he would have opened himself up to the possibility that his father would ignore him again if it weren't for Gibbs. I did like that show hit upon that parent-child vibe where, no matter how old you are or how competent you are or how independent you are, your parents will always feel the need to tell you what to do. It's just that other parents don't completely and totally suck at child-rearing, so that when they do tell you what to do when you're 60, it's a mild annoyance instead of yet another instance of your father trampling on your feelings and treating you like an idiot.
I was thinking about when Tony said, "He is who he is," and why he covered for his father. He seemed so resigned throughout the ep that he and his father weren't going to connect. (But he also didn't let it stop him from saying what he needed to say!) Tony probably thought that his father wasn't proud of him and didn't love him, and that's why Sr was so cold and distant. And I bet he has a subconscious need to just please his father and gain his approval that probably explains why Tony couldn't stop himself from reacting the way he did. If he could explain to his father where he was coming from and show him that he was a competent adult, then they could start to resolve their problems. In that context, I think the "I love you" was kind of horrible. Because then it turns out that his father does actually love him and isn't horribly disappointed by him, but still acts in the exact same way he has for Tony's whole entire life. I guess it could have been freeing for Tony to learn that he wasn't the defective one in that relationship, but it has to suck to have absolutely no hope of having a relationship with your father, ever, because your father is not a very good person.
Heh, I thought Gibbs might explode when Tony said that he didn't expect Gibbs for another hour. Just. Why is he so awesome?! How is it even possible? Also, handcuffs Like, not the fake lined cuffs, he used his actual cuffs! Wait, was Tony the one that had the pink fuzzy handcuffs in his desk drawer back in S2 or S3? *!!!!!!!!!!* OMG.
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I think for him to be so utterly unaware of what he was doing after Tony's mother died as being wrong, that lack of contact had to present even before she died. And, oh, going from a huge amount of attention to barely any must have been hard enough, but if that attention he got in the first place was due to an ulterior motive, not just out of love, even if it crazy-lady love, must be even harder.
Oh, Gibbs! He's always been really awesome, obviously, but there have always been things he's done that make me frustrated with him, because he is so fucked up and when it comes to his team, he's shown really crappy moments of leadership - but then he goes and out-awesomes everyone in this episode (except Tony). When he gets things right, he gets them so very right! My love for him may have fluctuated before, but with this and Faith, it's cemented.
... but maybe he didn't like Tony very much.
I think it could be. I know there's a lot of fic and fanon out there that have Tony and Gibbs having a special bond pretty much from the moment they meet, and I'm totally guilty of thinking this too, but I'm coming round to the idea that it really wasn't the case. I wouldn't be surprised if he instantly thought Tony was a reliable guy with good instincts, and an ability to bounce off Gibbs in a way that caused neither suicidal or homicidal tendencies in either of them, which is why he kept him on for those two years before S1, but it wasn't until S2 that he realised there was more to him than just a good backup. I don't even know if there was an obvious turning point, maybe more of a gradual thing once they got Kate and then McGee. You know in Dead Man Talking, when Tony mentioned being immature the last time he stayed with Gibbs? I think that the previous sleepover not being a good experience might be an indicator that he was still treating Tony as 2D back then, but agreeing to let him stay over - that's maybe a sign he'd spotted at least one layer.
I really love the way they play parent-child vibes in this show. Gibbs, Tony and Ziva all really felt like they were kids in their interactions with their fathers, and all rebelling against them in some way or another. It's just that their parents have clearly had some serious problems with communication, and that's made their children even more defensive when they start interfering or trying to control them than other, more healthily-raised children. The "He is who he is" line definitely pushes for my favourite line of the episode, among many, LOL, but it was just so tiredly accepting.
In that context, I think the "I love you" was kind of horrible. Because then it turns out that his father does actually love him and isn't horribly disappointed by him, but still acts in the exact same way he has for Tony's whole entire life.
I think that's the biggest discovery Tony made - he was at a fairly healthy place in his life, expecting his father to be his usual heartless, uncaring self and dismiss the points - but making them anyway, yes! - but his father then reveals that he does love him, but still dismisses him. Like, when Tony says that "it must have been hard, being left alone ...", he's almost giving his father an out, or an excuse for his behaviour, that he was too devastated by his wife's death to cope with his son competently - but there wasn't any reason at all other than that his dad just isn't nice and doesn't have a clue. God. Devastating. (I'm not even going to try making a point of this right now, because the incoherent squee would be unreal, but Gibbs can be a heartless bastard sometimes too, right - but he at least has his reasons?)
Tony totally did have the fuzzy handcuffs in his drawer in that early season! Ah! I! Just! Gibbs hands in that upside down shot of him from Tony's perspective?!?! Awesome! ♥ ♥
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I know there's a lot of fic and fanon out there that have Tony and Gibbs having a special bond pretty much from the moment they meet, and I'm totally guilty of thinking this too, but I'm coming round to the idea that it really wasn't the case.
Hee. I was actually thinking of your fic when I wrote that, but in a good way. ;) I could go either way on the special bond. I don't think a special bond would necessarily preclude Gibbs from not getting Tony's awesomeness. On the show, Gibbs definitely has an exasperated fondness for Tony as well as a strong desire to never see anything bad happen to him. He just happens to not know him very well at the beginning, which makes sense (sort of, as much as anything on this show does) when considering Gibbs' incredibly screwed up mental state at the time. He was completely denying that his wife and daughter ever existed and had instead buried himself in work. He did get married a few times, but he also simultaneously isolated himself emotionally.
In the scenario you wrote, it makes sense to me that Gibbs would care about Tony and have some weird connection to him (his gut = ♥), but he's basically dealing with a stranger. Maybe some teeny tiny part of Gibbs couldn't help but be resistant to the fact that he was essentially forced together with a stranger because if they didn't do it now, they would never see each other again. But that's just me projecting my issues onto your story, which was totally awesome even without my issues.
Maybe that's a reason that Gibbs was nicer to Sr. He thought he understood where Sr was coming from and that he knew what was underneath his mask. Except he didn't, because Sr was just a horrible father. Maybe he could have changed at one point, but he's spent so many years as the person he is now. I think he can still do it, but it would take him a long time, not just one episode, to change. Tony seemed worn out by the end of F&B, maybe because he really saw his father for the first time. I bet he was really, really happy to get away to Paris for a while.
His hands look so big! I didn’t realize. ♥ I kind of love the idea that Tony started out with the pink, fuzzy ones and graduated to the real cuffs later. :)
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