Rant

[celandineb]

I'm not telling anyone what they can and can't like/read/write, first of all. Just to make that plain. Nor am I saying that if you like the following, I think less of you. It's not directed at anyone in particular nor inspired by any specific fics. This is just me being peevish, okay?

Comments

[florahart]

I'm sort of astounded you perceive this as common--doesn't mean you haven't seen it a lot, but I'm kind of shaking my head because I haven't. I mean, there is the forced-bond cliche, and there are marriage law fics and whatnot, but on the whole, I don't think I think it's overwhelmingly prevalent or anything (and by and large, the marriage law ones aren't slash, I don't think. I could be wrong). I'm aware of a few fics where the same-sex couple actually gets married, but I see this as relatively rare, in my reading

[mistressofrohan]

As for calling it "marriage," I imagine that's just a matter of convenience. There is currently no other term which carries the same weight. Civil union is currently kind of viewed as a "second best" thing--can't get married, so you have a civil union agreement or whatever. It doesn't hold the weight of tradition and social validation and so forth.

I think this is a very valid point. Up here in Canada, if two people live together for 365 days, they are considered to be 'common-law'. That is, the government counts them as statistically (and perhaps legally) 'equal' to a traditionally married couple.

That said, the general social perception is that a common-law couple are somehow not as much of a couple as one that has been legally married. Some believe that without an official ceremony, the relationship is easily dissolved if necessary, and therefore lacks a sense of commitment. On the other hand, some people I know of in a common-law relationship are perfectly content to leave it as it is, rather than formalize it with a

[celandineb]

Some believe that without an official ceremony, the relationship is easily dissolved if necessary, and therefore lacks a sense of commitment.

But it sounds as if this isn't actually the case, if living together for 365 days means that according to the law, the couple is married?

I guess I feel that if a couple (het, gay, whatever) live together long-term and consider themselves committed to each other, it really doesn't matter if they make it "official" -- because in practice it's going to be complicated to separate, once your lives are intertwined. I didn't particularly feel the need to get married for myself; it was more because this was a way to mark our commitment to our family, friends, etc. We had a minister do it because that was the easiest way to arrange it in our particular circumstances, but I would have been at least as happy to have a civil ceremony (whether it would then be called a civil union or a marriage, who cares).

[mistressofrohan]

But it sounds as if this isn't actually the case, if living together for 365 days means that according to the law, the couple is married?I was trying to mark the difference between the government's statistical (legal?) POV, and the general opinion held by most Canadians that I know of

[celandineb]

I haven't read a lot of fics that focus on the marriage ceremony, no -- it's more that it's taken for granted that X and Y are married, and use the term "husband" to refer to each other. I'm sure that there are plenty of same-sex couples in real life who do use the terms "husband" or "wife," and if they want to, that's their choice. But it sounds strange to me, in RL or in fic -- and in fic it really throws me out, as a reader, from the flow of the story.

Personally, and doubtless I'm in a minority, I don't think that civil unions are second best at all. The entire concept of marriage today is really very different from what it has been for most of the Judeo-Christian era; while there are still some denominations that are very anti-divorce, most people recognize that marriage is not necessarily a lifetime commitment. So to me, then, there isn't the same weight behind it as there might once have been, and "civil union" seems a much more accurate description. But that's just my take, of course.

[thrihyrne]

To be honest, it was only with josanpq's story 'Aftermath' that has a handfasting moment at the end that I'd ever even considered such a thing for a same-sex couple within HP-dom. I'm now guilty of having it as an element in three of my own created storyline universes, but only as an actual plot moment in one, so far. I'm also afraid that in FWtW I do have one of the two refer to the other as husband, and I know I angsted over whether or not to do that for ages. In the others, the George/Remus and Ron/Draco, they would *never* refer to each other as husband. They are partners, lovers, bondmates, lifemates, but they never use traditional het spousal terminology

[celandineb]

Well, it matters to get it from the government because there are a lot of social/legal/economic consequences. Government exists to help structure society in useful (ideally) ways, and that's one of the angles.

I remember when you used "husband" in FWtW, yeah -- and it took me aback a little because you usually do avoid that term. *g* I don't want to give the impression that I'm against people (in RL or fic) having ceremonies of union of whatever sort -- there are all kinds of reasons they might want to do so. It just sort of depresses me when it seems in a fic like this is the only way to justify the relationship, you understand. It gives me kind of a feeling like they're saying, "oh look! we're just like straight people!" Why should a queer couple feel the need to do that?

[a_d_medievalist]

I would be perfectly happy if everyone were required to join in a civil union -- a simple contract -- if they wanted the legal benefits that only married people get now, and then, if they wanted some kind of spiritual or social ceremony, marriage in a church, handfasting, whatever, they could do that separately. But the contract between whoever should be the legal determinant. i think both Anne McCaffery and Sheri Tepper had stories where such contracts existed, and were renewable after X number of years.

[celandineb]

*nods vigorously* That is something that would make a great deal of sense, IMO. If people wanted to live together their entire lives, they could simply keep renewing the contract. If matters changed between them, it would be acceptable not to renew.