Further reply to Brian's challenge (see previous post)
I believe that the hate the sin not the sinner doctrine is frequently acted upon as an excuse to use religion to justify being mean to people.
I consider some sins to be relative, tied with our own spiritual journey. My classic example of this is with drinking.
- if i have renounced alcohol due to a problem with alcoholism, then drinking any amount is a sin because I would be unable to moderate my intake and it would turn into abuse
- if i am NOT an alcoholic and alcohol has no power over me, then drinking is not a sin.
In the case of alcohol, exactly what sin is being committed is moving into a grey area. Perhaps it would count as idolatry because i'm submitting my will to something other than G-d. In which case video games and television are idols for me. Very likely the sin is more along the lines of abusing oneself or putting oneself in a position to abuse others.
Officially i don't believe it is my job to define sin, we're given a good handbook, but it was written by the only being which can make that distinction, G-d, and interpreted through a cultural context of limited social evolution, and the handbook doesn't cover every topic.
I believe stoning people (or the death penalty in any form) is wrong in any context, but not only is it was used as an alternative to prison in a justice system for nomadic people with no jails, it is explicitly required if you catch someone in the act of numerous sins. We are no longer nomads, there are now better ways to deal with personal indiscretion. And the Jewish people recognized this as well, for the most part their justice system adapted once they stopped wandering.
Everything the bible tells us has to be continually reinterpreted and not "updated" to fit modern times but "understood" within the context of the time it was written and what was the ultimate intent, also within the context of what we now know to be "good." This is the basis of following the spirit of the law, rather than the letter.
All "fundamentalist" forms of every religion on earth tend to stick to the concept of stoning, abuse, and persecution of people who aren't like them and i believe this to be wholly wrong on several levels - morally evil for one, frustrating because they use religion as an excuse to do horrible things that are never justifiable in the modern age, and a prideful act to say they know A) G-d's will or B) right from wrong in the matter of another person's life.
I grant i'm making the same judgement about the ones doing the stoning that they're making about the people condemned, and i still consider myself to be in the right and them in the wrong, but i make that judgement based on the case that no-one has the right to persecute, cause harm, or kill another human being except G-d itself (who doesn't exercise that right) - especially not "agents" of G-d in human form being assholes to each other.
To return to the topic at hand, hating oneself. Experience tells me that many people, if not most of them, are pre-programmed to do just that.
People who don't hate themselves tend to fall into two categories, those who externalize that hate to others, and those who have come to terms with who they are, have the courage to love themselves anyway, extend that love to as large a group of "everyone" as they can manage, and continually work to get over their hangups about whatever sub-groups of "everyone" they haven't managed to allow themselves to be okay with yet.
I also think the journey of finding yourself deserving of love, and by extension everyone else, and continually challenging whatever programming you have to the contrary is the primary job of Humanity, whatever the religion. Love is so much more difficult to have and express than hate, and so much more rewarding. This life is hard enough that we are called to take care of and be of service to one another.
Again, take these theories with a grain of salt if you like, i don't have scriptural basis for much of it. Even so, it is the only way I know of to make the world a better place with each generation, and we are certainly called to make the world a better place and be good stewards of the resources given to us (including our fellow humans)
I consider some sins to be relative, tied with our own spiritual journey. My classic example of this is with drinking.
- if i have renounced alcohol due to a problem with alcoholism, then drinking any amount is a sin because I would be unable to moderate my intake and it would turn into abuse
- if i am NOT an alcoholic and alcohol has no power over me, then drinking is not a sin.
In the case of alcohol, exactly what sin is being committed is moving into a grey area. Perhaps it would count as idolatry because i'm submitting my will to something other than G-d. In which case video games and television are idols for me. Very likely the sin is more along the lines of abusing oneself or putting oneself in a position to abuse others.
Officially i don't believe it is my job to define sin, we're given a good handbook, but it was written by the only being which can make that distinction, G-d, and interpreted through a cultural context of limited social evolution, and the handbook doesn't cover every topic.
I believe stoning people (or the death penalty in any form) is wrong in any context, but not only is it was used as an alternative to prison in a justice system for nomadic people with no jails, it is explicitly required if you catch someone in the act of numerous sins. We are no longer nomads, there are now better ways to deal with personal indiscretion. And the Jewish people recognized this as well, for the most part their justice system adapted once they stopped wandering.
Everything the bible tells us has to be continually reinterpreted and not "updated" to fit modern times but "understood" within the context of the time it was written and what was the ultimate intent, also within the context of what we now know to be "good." This is the basis of following the spirit of the law, rather than the letter.
All "fundamentalist" forms of every religion on earth tend to stick to the concept of stoning, abuse, and persecution of people who aren't like them and i believe this to be wholly wrong on several levels - morally evil for one, frustrating because they use religion as an excuse to do horrible things that are never justifiable in the modern age, and a prideful act to say they know A) G-d's will or B) right from wrong in the matter of another person's life.
I grant i'm making the same judgement about the ones doing the stoning that they're making about the people condemned, and i still consider myself to be in the right and them in the wrong, but i make that judgement based on the case that no-one has the right to persecute, cause harm, or kill another human being except G-d itself (who doesn't exercise that right) - especially not "agents" of G-d in human form being assholes to each other.
To return to the topic at hand, hating oneself. Experience tells me that many people, if not most of them, are pre-programmed to do just that.
People who don't hate themselves tend to fall into two categories, those who externalize that hate to others, and those who have come to terms with who they are, have the courage to love themselves anyway, extend that love to as large a group of "everyone" as they can manage, and continually work to get over their hangups about whatever sub-groups of "everyone" they haven't managed to allow themselves to be okay with yet.
I also think the journey of finding yourself deserving of love, and by extension everyone else, and continually challenging whatever programming you have to the contrary is the primary job of Humanity, whatever the religion. Love is so much more difficult to have and express than hate, and so much more rewarding. This life is hard enough that we are called to take care of and be of service to one another.
Again, take these theories with a grain of salt if you like, i don't have scriptural basis for much of it. Even so, it is the only way I know of to make the world a better place with each generation, and we are certainly called to make the world a better place and be good stewards of the resources given to us (including our fellow humans)