Oh, I can see I've caused some confusion. My issue is not with Kara's compassion for a dying husband, but with the contrived writing that sees not only Lee toying with Dee again, but also Kara realising her True Love for Sam just before he (I'm assuming) dies. Yes, the two of them have been treated equally by the writers. But I find both instances of writing absolutely ridiculously contrived and MASSIVE copouts on the part of the writers. Oh, how convenient that Kara doesn't actually have to address any of the complex issues in her relationship with Sam (he's a Cylon, he lied to her, she doesn't know who SHE is). I am angry because I predicted this would happen and it renders any Lee/Kara anything from now on a complete joke to me. I'm angry at the writers, not at Kara.
I have to admit I did miss the moment of 'pure understanding' that you spoke of. It felt more like Lee realising he couldn't count on Kara to me, but completely understanding why because she needed to be with her husband.
You might not like it but you better accept that both Lee and Kara care for their spouses. I do. I always have. But I bet you there IS some epic soulmates aspect to Sam's death. And even if there isn't... Lee made it clear that he was there for Kara if she wanted him. Kara has ignored that. If she turns to Lee after Sam dies then that looks like she's treating Lee as second choice. Which is how she's always treated him. I want better than that.
this scene doesn't taint the last episode's L/K kiss for me. For me, it put it in perspective. She would have kissed anyone with that much adrenalin pumping through her. That's ok. But I just should remember it doesn't mean anything when she does that.
I did love the moment you loved as well, with Lee messing with Kara. It was adorable.
Lee toying with Dee again, but also Kara realising her True Love for Sam just before he (I'm assuming) dies. Yes, the two of them have been treated equally by the writers. But I find both instances of writing absolutely ridiculously contrived and MASSIVE copouts on the part of the writers.
You see, Lee just having a drink with Dee I had no problem with, it made sense, since Kara wasn’t there. His long lingering kiss seemed very odd though which was definitely the fault of bad writing. With Sam getting shot in the middle of a mutiny and Kara having to stay with him there’s no oddness or contrived writing to me, it all feels very real and in character imo. I didn’t feel any vibes of Big True Love between them at all in this episode, so those are just your assumptions based on what exactly? - I bet they’re based on previous experience with L/K but they’ve changed a lot Bop. They’ve grown up. I believe that Kara won’t end up with a huge guilt complex over Anders getting shot or dying; a lot of people had died, it’s stronger than her and frankly she has many issues to think about besides her role in his probable death. There’s been enough of Scar and Act of Contrition.
I have to admit I did miss the moment of 'pure understanding' that you spoke of. It felt more like Lee realising he couldn't count on Kara to me, but completely understanding why because she needed to be with her husband.
He can always count on her… this moment was all about her counting on him to complete what they’ve started TOGETHER and his gratitude for pushing him further and understanding that she has to stay. You see, I perceive this moment differently, it actually reminds me of Razor in some gut wrenching ways. To me it showed Kara acting like an officer in the truest sense of word staying with a wounded comrade whom she cares about and stays loyal to and reminding Lee about the mission at hand thus sacrificing her own strong desire and need to have him by her side helping her. She gets his first urge to stay with her, she want him too… as much as he wants to stay. But. What Lee sees reflected in her eyes is that desperation to get him going and her furious demand not to get all chivalrous with her now, NOT TO FORGET about the mission because of her and GET HIS FATHER and then return control over the ship; Lee sees it and he is grateful to her for reminding him who he has to be, for bringing the strongest side of him to the surface *again* (because for a moment he was “selfishly” all about himself and Kara) although it breaks his heart to leave her there undefended.
Oh pilots!
Their whole team work in the last two episodes is pure Love… How Kara kills for him, saves him, clears his overthinking head with that kiss and reassures him they can do it together just him and her, Starbuck and Apollo, how he quickly finds focus she gives him, turns into Apollo… how they feel every step and movement of each other like ONE… like in good old days… and he patiently awaits for her to hand him the gun belt *lol*, how Lee in turn sais they can take all six guards by themselves when she doesn’t believe it’s possible and then shines in his brilliant grenade trick which takes her aback… So very them! I love this dance based on instinct and deep innate connection they share.
I must thank you for taking the time to write these comments. I am actually very moved. Very few people care enough to argue with me about BSG these days, and I appreciate you doing so when you think I'm overreacting. I probably am. I guess I need someone to slap me sometimes. I'm just so fed up and disappointed with the way the show cops out on the big issues and on the ships as well.
Lee just having a drink with Dee I had no problem with, I wouldn't have had so much of a problem with it if it hadn't been right after they found destroyed!Earth. There were so many big issues right then! I found it absurd that ANYone's reaction was to go for a semi-romantic drink.
With Sam getting shot in the middle of a mutiny and Kara having to stay with him there’s no oddness or contrived writing to me, You don't feel like they're trying to balance the scales? Lee got to have his Dee flirtation and then he died, now here's the other alternaship onscreen with the spouse endangered... bit coincidental? no?
Like you don't see where I'm getting my perspective from, I don't really see why you feel there's space for optimism. Kara's stuck by Sam, even after she got back. She's still married to him, she sleeps with him, she stood with him when they found Earth... I think she loves him, deeply, completely. Otherwise we would have seen her avoid him.
To me it showed Kara acting like an officer in the truest sense of word staying with a wounded comrade whom she cares about and stays loyal to Ugh. I just can't agree there. Firstly, she's not staying with Sam because he's a comrade, she's staying with him because he's her husband. Secondly, as a fellow soldier, Sam has never been treated 'equally' by Kara. After he shot Gaeta did he get disciplined? no, he got to go on an away mission with her. She favours him the same way she used to favour Zak. She's not objective here at all. And that doesn't mean she's a terrible person, it's normal to feel this way, I imagine. But I can't view her actions as those of a 'good officer'.
I'm really impressed with how moved you were by this scene. I feel like I should watch it again and try to see it through your eyes. I really didn't see what you are talking about at all. I did see Lee trying to be honourable and do the right thing--and I believe he had genuine compassion for Sam, who I know he respects (foolishly!).
I wish I could still be in the raptures you're in.
I must thank you for taking the time to write these comments. I am actually very moved. Very few people care enough to argue with me about BSG these days, and I appreciate you doing so when you think I'm overreacting.
Yep, I care about you finding the show enjoyable at least to some extent. I’m very sorry you’re disappointed and I’m just sharing my positive perspective as I know that it might help slightly even if you don’t feel the way I do and don’t agree with me ;)
I’d had my highs and lows with BSG, there were moments of desperation for me similar to yours in the second half of S2 and in S3, so I understand the state of mind you're probably in. I’ll just continue to disagree with you and point you out the reasons why if you don’t mind.
There were so many big issues right then! I found it absurd that ANYone's reaction was to go for a semi-romantic drink.
I see. But the way I perceive it is that Lee was also shocked with this revelation about Earth. His dad started drinking, Roslin completely shut out the external world around her… There’s a moment when you can’t react, you can’t make further decisions or deal with those big issues at hand, you have to just come out of that state of numbness and utter disbelief and I think Lee’s coping mechanism here was this need to talk to someone close enough that had to be satiated. Dee was that someone, because there wasn’t any other person available at that moment and she’s technically his wife and they’ve come a long way together. It made sense to me up until the point when he kissed her, which was Moore’s stupid manner to reinforce the drama of her suicide.
now here's the other alternaship onscreen with the spouse endangered... bit coincidental? no?
Sure it’s not a coincidence, Lee and Kara have to deal with their spouses before they can even attempt to give each other another chance - and I’m sure this is where it’s coming. Of course it’s a trite move to make a spouse take a bullet and have Kara sit beside his bed. I’m not saying I like it. But I believe that the mortal danger Sam’s in is the only way for her to start addressing the problems that she’s been avoiding to face out of confusion and fear.
Like you don't see where I'm getting my perspective from
Oh I see it, Bop. I could focus on all the worrying aspects as well if I wanted too. But all in all, I just see this differently and I’m not trying to make you change your mind, I’m merely sharing my standpoint.
She's still married to him, she sleeps with him, she stood with him when they found Earth... I think she loves him, deeply, completely. Otherwise we would have seen her avoid him.
I disagree completely. She’s been avoiding him since her return! Yes she’s married to him, she didn’t exactly have time to ‘unmarry’ him with her visions and obsession about Earth, did she? She slept with him only because he kept pushing and that was a totally ugly… old-Kara behavior under huge stress when she was about to lose her frakking mind. But don’t turn a blind eye to the fact that she told him their marriage had been a joke, an attempt for her to escape since day one! That’s a huge admission for Kara and that’s what really matters. As for standing with him when they found Earth, Bop… this is absolutely jealous Lee talking in you! :)) Just try to come out of Lee’s perspective of hurt pride and heart and see the real picture. She didn’t CHOOSE to stand with Anders, she chose to have a quiet moment alone and come to the memorial hall and stand with Kat… or the memory of Kat and all those people she knew that gave their lives for the dream of Earth that Kara thought humans were about to see coming true. It was like a quiet prayer… a few minutes to honor their memory and their sacrifice, a very private moment… And Sam approached from behind and invaded that private space for a hundredth time because he doesn’t seem to get that Kara Thrace is done with him. Just rewatch it! The expression on her face changes when she notices him by her left side, she doesn’t look at him, her body tenses and she clenches her jaw.
Firstly, she's not staying with Sam because he's a comrade, she's staying with him because he's her husband.
She’s staying with him because he’s her husband and a fellow crewmate. All I’m saying is that she would’ve done the same thing for ANYone. Had it been Helo to get a bullet, she would’ve stayed with him all the same!
I am angry because I predicted this would happen and it renders any Lee/Kara anything from now on a complete joke to me. I'm angry at the writers, not at Kara.
Ok, we’ve established you’re not angry at Kara, that’s already something. :) You have every right to be angry at writers… just don’t make too many assumptions. What we saw with Kara and Sam in BOTS doesn’t pose any threat to L/K, it can’t even be called shippy, more importantly, it doesn’t diminish the strength of feelings and uniqueness of the bond between Lee and Kara, on the contrary, they’ve come to accept their feelings and be at peace with them. Every second of their shared screen time in S4 screamed of how very much in love our pilots (with a clear accent on Kara this time! finally!) are. She never laughed and smiled with Sam the way she did with Lee… and the beaming looks of adoration she was giving him in Six Of One and Revelations mean everything.
But I bet you there IS some epic soulmates aspect to Sam's death.
I don’t think so. I just think that she’s somehow connected to all of the final Five and we’re about to learn how and maybe why exactly. I think this is a way to address some of those issues about him being a cylon, her not knowing what she is. Don’t forget that Kara’s a deeply damaged woman and she’s been through all new kinds of hell lately… she wouldn’t think about or deal with those issues without some pushing circumstances. She’s too confused scared and doesn’t have as many emotional strength as we’d like her to have. I think we’ll have to forgive her that. And Sam’s current condition and his revelations he’s about to spill may be those pushing circumstances.
And even if there isn't... Lee made it clear that he was there for Kara if she wanted him. Kara has ignored that.
Oh don’t get all Lee-fangirly with me, I’m a fangirl myself and I get that perspective! :) But if we’re being objective - Lee never made it clear that she could have him in a romantic sense of word after her death Openly! He never said that. He never divorced Dee. In Six Of One the official scene was all about their love and his support and acceptance of her as Kara (even if cylon) and about acceptance of their need to separate to fulfill the destinies that seemed more important to both of them than being together at that moment - Lee representing people’s will in quorum and Kara finding Earth.
Even Jamie told us in one of his last interviews that “there's a lot to be decided about what her return means, and Lee just accepted that in S4.0 because accepting it is easier than confronting it. He loves her. He always will. But Lee walked away from that love and left it unexplored; they need to understand what has actually happened”.
If she turns to Lee after Sam dies then that looks like she's treating Lee as second choice.
I think Kara did choose... she told Lee “except me” in Six of One and looked at him like she wanted him to shoot her for making those mistakes, like she wanted to turn back time and fix everything and was acknowledging his right to never forgive her or give her a second chance as well as her own eternal need for him. Since then Earth and mission were first for her and Lee and no other man - was second. We haven't seen her with Sam in a close manner since the Demetrius (where BTW, she told him their marriage was a lie, a way for her to run away, told him to leave her alone and then when he refused had sex with him in her ugly old fashion since she was under much stress) and even last night, she ignored him and went to check Helo first until Sam was shot. Now I just hope she gets to say that the choice’s been made years ago and/or for Sam to finally let her go and accept that they were never meant to be.
This is ridiculous what a small act of concern and loyalty to the man Kara cares about can do to shippers.
But I just should remember it doesn't mean anything when she does that.
they’ve come to accept their feelings and be at peace with them. Every second of their shared screen time in S4 screamed of how very much in love our pilots (with a clear accent on Kara this time! finally!) are Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't agree at all. I wish I did! I really really wish I did! But I have never felt our pilots were further apart. Six of One was the last time I felt they were really 'together'. I got my hopes up in the last episode but saw more practical comradeness than shippiness (which is fine! at least that's something!) but every other moment on screen in S4? Has seemed really cold and distant to me. It felt like Kara deliberately pulled back from that moment of intimacy in Six of One.
Sam’s current condition and his revelations he’s about to spill may be those pushing circumstances. You obviously know stuff I don't. I haven't even seen the trailer, but I take it this is based on that? It sounds terrible. I don't think I want to see the next episode. But hey, I better just face up to it. I do think Kara needs to deal with the issues with Sam and I'd rather she did so than have Sam die without her doing so. Like you say, she kind of needs to be pushed into dealing with these things.
In Six Of One the official scene was all about their love and his support and acceptance of her as Kara I always saw even the official version as way, waaaaay more than that. I saw it as a non-verbal but nonetheless clear pledge to Kara that he would be there if/when she wanted him, but that it was up to her. I think that was very clear to Kara. She promptly ran back to her husband. I think that's pretty crystal clear. Whereas Lee did not sleep with Dee again--and do we know that he didn't divorce Dee? I thought he had.
It was the writers' decision that led to Lee leaving that love 'unexplored'--the writers don't view the Lee/Kara relationship as important any more, and I'm convinced that at least some of them are Kara/Sam shippers.
Since then Earth and mission were first for her and Lee and no other man - was second. Er did you miss the bits where she was sleeping with her husband or tramping around on Earth with Leoben?
We haven't seen her with Sam in a close manner since the Demetrius Not true. I read a lot into her choice to be with him when they found Earth, rather than with Lee and Adama, or with the pilots. That was a VERY pointed decision. Despite being the one leading them to Earth, she wanted to be with her husband. Also, she reacted unblinkingly to discovering he was a Cylon (and according to Ron was going to kiss him in joy/acceptance!). I expect we'll see a lot more of that now.
I'm sorry you find it ridiculous, but this is what I've seen on the show. I know its natural for shippers to cling to hope, and hey I got excited myself last week when Lee and Kara were on screen so much together. But really, Kara was just on a massive high about having a fight to fight again. I saw several people comment that Lee 'could have been anyone' and that's sort of how I feel now too--she was happy he had her back, but she's still very much a 'solo' Kara Thrace, and I don't think we should read anything too shippy into them fighting together. At least, we should but the writers don't want us to. ;)
I got my hopes up in the last episode but saw more practical comradeness than shippiness (which is fine! at least that's something!) but every other moment on screen in S4? Has seemed really cold and distant to me. It felt like Kara deliberately pulled back from that moment of intimacy in Six of One.
He-he. Again, I don’t agree. She’s been very close with him in Revelations and SAGN… She was willing to tell him everything about finding her body on the surface. That is HUGE.
And in Revelations… oh my… just look at her shining face in Adama’s quarters, she’s beaming at Lee, flirting, calling him Mr. Prez, saying they’ll walk those halls together. She stands so close… she’s practically leaning into his body near the table - that’s how much she wants his proximity. She’s so in love and so openly it hurts to watch. But Lee’s too engulfed in his father’s absence and probable death, that’s why he comes across as a cold and distant one in this scene.
It’s such an irony that many Kara-fans find that Lee has been cold to Kara since Six of One. I can’t agree with both points of view maybe because I’m a Lee fan and Kara fan two in one. They’re connected more than ever... even when their moods don’t match.
I haven't even seen the trailer, but I take it this is based on that?
Yep, exactly. This was the first preview trailer I watched since S4.5 started. I’m trying to stay spoiler free but after BOTS just couldn’t help myself.
It sounds terrible. I don't think I want to see the next episode.
Oh, this will certainly be a very hard episode to watch! I just have to remind myself that Anders is badly injured and she thinks he might die....so it’s natural for her to focus on him. It doesn't mean she will run off and have his babies.
At least with SAGN I didn’t know that there were Lee/Dee scenes coming. Although who knows what’s better to be prepared and to know beforehand or to take it all in one unexpected swallow.
I always saw even the official version as way, waaaaay more than that. I saw it as a non-verbal but nonetheless clear pledge to Kara that he would be there if/when she wanted him, but that it was up to her.
Of course! Because you saw it from Lee’s perspective first and foremost. He does tell her all that in a non verbal form. But Kara’s too damaged and insecure to be certain. For Kara what he did means that he accepted her and believed her, which is a huge relief, but it doesn’t mean “come back and if you’re willing to try again - I’m yours”. That’s too much of a step and they need to really talk about it and verbalise it. Let me tell you that for her it hurt that he came to see her in the brig only when he was going to leave Galactica and when Lee walked in and she said the bit about "except me" and Lee did respond with Especially you... he did all that handshaking and once again turned and was about to walk away! And it was Kara who said....LEE.....which brought him back instantly. But he was walking away....what if she hadn't said “Lee!”. It's all there. He's hesitates and she's also uncertain and vulnerable.
I think that was very clear to Kara. She promptly ran back to her husband. I think that's pretty crystal clear.
No it wasn’t that clear to her unfortunately. She always has tremendous doubt; especially after all they’ve been through. We’re talking about pilots trying to be romantically involved here and Six of One scene isn’t enough to make moves in that direction, not for Lee just as not for Kara. And Lee’s still married to Dee and she to Sam… they’re too grown up now to attempt being close in a romantic sense of word before they deal with their marriages.
And don’t exaggerate, she didn’t run back to Anders, it was Anders who insisted on being with her on that mission and imposed himself on her. I’ve talked about Demetrius above; had there been Lee on that ship - her destructive sex with Sam would never have happened, just as had there been Kara on Galactica - Lee would have never gone to have a drink with Dee/kissed her. Do we have to conclude that Lee ran off to Dee to renew his vows and abandoned Kara on Earth because he doesn’t love her as well? That’s bullshit.
Whereas Lee did not sleep with Dee again--and do we know that he didn't divorce Dee? I thought he had.
Sex doesn’t necessarily mean something to Kara, shouldn’t you know that by now? Especially in such an angry destructive form. Lee definitely didn’t divorce Dee, they both were wearing their rings till her last day. They just haven’t been living together since Baltar’s trial.
It was the writers' decision that led to Lee leaving that love 'unexplored'--the writers don't view the Lee/Kara relationship as important any more
Oh they do Bop! And Jamie was totally talking from Lee’s POV. What is interesting about his words is that he implies that Lee is not certain, he doesn’t know what she is and he's chosen to not spend time thinking about the implications of what her being back means because it’s too painful to think beyond the fact that she's there and she's real. They both haven’t dealt with her being back… and what it means to them.
Er did you miss the bits where she was sleeping with her husband or tramping around on Earth with Leoben?
Man… you will never let go of that Demetrius thing, will you? Leoben was just following her like a dog… she didn’t invite him for a walk.
Not true. I read a lot into her choice to be with him when they found Earth, rather than with Lee and Adama, or with the pilots. That was a VERY pointed decision. Despite being the one leading them to Earth, she wanted to be with her husband.
OMG. REWATCH. I already said that above. Absolutely not the way I see it!
Also, she reacted unblinkingly to discovering he was a Cylon
Oh really? Rewatch! *headdesk* And I don’t know what the hell RDM wanted her to do, but I know for sure what Katee PLAYED. I saw it with my own eyes… shock, betrayal, all reflected on her face… she played it like Kara was sick and restraining herself from throwing up. Watch my last vid Diamonds, I nail that scene and her vision very pointedly there. The fact that Kara doesn’t get a chance to act on that feeling of betrayal (unlike Adama) is another tragedy… she doesn’t have time… and then she discovers her own body and it calls everything into question.
I saw several people comment that Lee 'could have been anyone' and that's sort of how I feel now too
Lee is not anyone, has never been - only he can make her feel that way.
I really want to respond more thoroughly, but the gist of it is that your comments gave me cause to stop and (re)think my assumptions about Kara/Lee and Kara/Sam. I really have felt that the writers ditched K/L for K/S... but your heartfelt explanation of how you don't feel that's the case at all has made me question that. It is true that I tend to be so heavily in Lee's pov that I feel a lot of jealousy on his behalf. It doesn't help that I find Sam despicable.
I have not yet watched this week's episode--I have obviously had a lot of other priorities this week, and now that I have the time, I find myself pretty unwilling to as I gather it's all about Sam. I fear that if I watch it will undo what you've said here and I'll be back to thinking 'yeah, the writers think Kara/Sam is the OTP'. When, actually... you really persuaded me otherwise here, even if you didn't set out to. I'd prefer to believe what you believe: that K/L is still important to them, even if they won't let the two characters be together.
Thank you so much. No-one else has been able to shake my perspective before--their arguments have sounded so hollow and weak and wishful thinking. *hugs*
It is true that I tend to be so heavily in Lee's pov that I feel a lot of jealousy on his behalf.
I know, my own peak point of jealousy was in the late S2 and then during the hiatus when I was so heartbroken I thought I’d never recover… I had serious doubts over Kara’s choices and her obsession with the rescue mission etc.
It doesn't help that I find Sam despicable.
When it comes to Sam, I can’t find a single character trait that I’d personally find worth genuine respect. I’ve always disliked him heavily. And don’t tell me he’s HOT… I think that’s the worst argument in favor of Sam’s character that this fandom has ever put forward. ;)
…now that I have the time, I find myself pretty unwilling to as I gather it's all about Sam.
It’s not so much about Sam as it is about the cylons in general, Ellen, Cavil and the difference between skin jobs and FF; Sam’s just the cylon Ron picked to tell the 3000-year history in 45 minutes. There’s a rift between form and content in this episode imo.
I mean, I like the content; they’ve finally started making sense in the universe's mythology/chronology and giving us some pretty fascinating answers we’ve been waiting for. That's a huge plus in my book.
But the form, the way it’s squeezed into one episode feels rushed and tedious in exposition at the same time… and I get that they don’t have much time left but I have an urge to say… hey guys, what were you thinking writing those multiple Baltar sex scenes in S4 instead of telling the story the way you could’ve and should’ve told so that the viewer didn’t have to finish watching episodes like No Exit feeling as if he has just been seriously mindfrakked?)
I fear that if I watch it will undo what you've said here and I'll be back to thinking 'yeah, the writers think Kara/Sam is the OTP'.
Well, without spoiling you I can say that I had no problem with her being there comforting him. She does love and care about him, I’m at peace with that because it’s a very different kind of affection compared to the one she feels for Lee. I also find that there was nothing shippy about it and she was very guilty and a bit selfish when it came to the info she was personally interested in too. Very typical Kara. Maybe the only difference is that she never tended to speak about her guilt out loud before she died; now she does, but the screen time she shared with Sam in this episode didn't feel like OMG Grand True Love Forever at all.
Also, no matter how hard it is for a Lee fan to realize she never showed such concern when Lee was shot, I must step aside from this bitterness and admit that speaking up her mind with Anders now is way much healthier than bottling up her guilt, acting like she doesn’t give a shit and deciding to keep silence and let the rage and self-loathing kill her from the inside - the way she did with Lee in S2. In that respect, I’m glad she acted on her feeling of guilt this time, took responsibility as a wife and was near Sam.
I'd prefer to believe what you believe: that K/L is still important to them, even if they won't let the two characters be together.
RDM’s comments in the recent podcast about Kara’s protective behavior in No Exit were: “She’s always been in love with Anders to an extent, even when that’s been supplanted by her feelings for Lee Adama”. I’m glad he acknowledges that Kara cares for Sam and loves him, although her feelings for Lee have a much stronger magnitude. And I think his “to an extent” bit is really important and telling as well.
I think there is far too much going on at the moment for Lee and Kara to do any kind of personal relationship moves. But the promo showed that they will be back to sharing the space together in the next episode… one way or the other.
Thank you so much. No-one else has been able to shake my perspective before--their arguments have sounded so hollow and weak and wishful thinking. *hugs*
Oh K, I’m glad I’ve been able to cheer you up a little and make you want to see the story from a different angle. :) It’s really sad when you watch the show enjoying many of its moments and see your friend being in such a deep letdown, because a considerable part of being a fan and a L/K shipper resides in sharing the everlasting hope that comes from a vision of this insane affection love and connection that the actors convey in every sec they are on screen together.
Even if the feeling doesn’t last long as you say, I think your reaction means that my thoughts were worth being spilled. *HUGS*
I’m with you till the bitter end, regardless of whether you hate it or love it.
I have to admit I did miss the moment of 'pure understanding' that you spoke of. It felt more like Lee realising he couldn't count on Kara to me, but completely understanding why because she needed to be with her husband.
You might not like it but you better accept that both Lee and Kara care for their spouses.
I do. I always have. But I bet you there IS some epic soulmates aspect to Sam's death. And even if there isn't... Lee made it clear that he was there for Kara if she wanted him. Kara has ignored that. If she turns to Lee after Sam dies then that looks like she's treating Lee as second choice. Which is how she's always treated him. I want better than that.
this scene doesn't taint the last episode's L/K kiss for me.
For me, it put it in perspective. She would have kissed anyone with that much adrenalin pumping through her. That's ok. But I just should remember it doesn't mean anything when she does that.
I did love the moment you loved as well, with Lee messing with Kara. It was adorable.
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You see, Lee just having a drink with Dee I had no problem with, it made sense, since Kara wasn’t there. His long lingering kiss seemed very odd though which was definitely the fault of bad writing. With Sam getting shot in the middle of a mutiny and Kara having to stay with him there’s no oddness or contrived writing to me, it all feels very real and in character imo. I didn’t feel any vibes of Big True Love between them at all in this episode, so those are just your assumptions based on what exactly? - I bet they’re based on previous experience with L/K but they’ve changed a lot Bop. They’ve grown up. I believe that Kara won’t end up with a huge guilt complex over Anders getting shot or dying; a lot of people had died, it’s stronger than her and frankly she has many issues to think about besides her role in his probable death. There’s been enough of Scar and Act of Contrition.
I have to admit I did miss the moment of 'pure understanding' that you spoke of. It felt more like Lee realising he couldn't count on Kara to me, but completely understanding why because she needed to be with her husband.
He can always count on her… this moment was all about her counting on him to complete what they’ve started TOGETHER and his gratitude for pushing him further and understanding that she has to stay.
You see, I perceive this moment differently, it actually reminds me of Razor in some gut wrenching ways. To me it showed Kara acting like an officer in the truest sense of word staying with a wounded comrade whom she cares about and stays loyal to and reminding Lee about the mission at hand thus sacrificing her own strong desire and need to have him by her side helping her. She gets his first urge to stay with her, she want him too… as much as he wants to stay. But. What Lee sees reflected in her eyes is that desperation to get him going and her furious demand not to get all chivalrous with her now, NOT TO FORGET about the mission because of her and GET HIS FATHER and then return control over the ship; Lee sees it and he is grateful to her for reminding him who he has to be, for bringing the strongest side of him to the surface *again* (because for a moment he was “selfishly” all about himself and Kara) although it breaks his heart to leave her there undefended.
Oh pilots!
Their whole team work in the last two episodes is pure Love… How Kara kills for him, saves him, clears his overthinking head with that kiss and reassures him they can do it together just him and her, Starbuck and Apollo, how he quickly finds focus she gives him, turns into Apollo… how they feel every step and movement of each other like ONE… like in good old days… and he patiently awaits for her to hand him the gun belt *lol*, how Lee in turn sais they can take all six guards by themselves when she doesn’t believe it’s possible and then shines in his brilliant grenade trick which takes her aback… So very them! I love this dance based on instinct and deep innate connection they share.
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Lee just having a drink with Dee I had no problem with,
I wouldn't have had so much of a problem with it if it hadn't been right after they found destroyed!Earth. There were so many big issues right then! I found it absurd that ANYone's reaction was to go for a semi-romantic drink.
With Sam getting shot in the middle of a mutiny and Kara having to stay with him there’s no oddness or contrived writing to me,
You don't feel like they're trying to balance the scales? Lee got to have his Dee flirtation and then he died, now here's the other alternaship onscreen with the spouse endangered... bit coincidental? no?
Like you don't see where I'm getting my perspective from, I don't really see why you feel there's space for optimism. Kara's stuck by Sam, even after she got back. She's still married to him, she sleeps with him, she stood with him when they found Earth... I think she loves him, deeply, completely. Otherwise we would have seen her avoid him.
To me it showed Kara acting like an officer in the truest sense of word staying with a wounded comrade whom she cares about and stays loyal to
Ugh. I just can't agree there. Firstly, she's not staying with Sam because he's a comrade, she's staying with him because he's her husband. Secondly, as a fellow soldier, Sam has never been treated 'equally' by Kara. After he shot Gaeta did he get disciplined? no, he got to go on an away mission with her. She favours him the same way she used to favour Zak. She's not objective here at all. And that doesn't mean she's a terrible person, it's normal to feel this way, I imagine. But I can't view her actions as those of a 'good officer'.
I'm really impressed with how moved you were by this scene. I feel like I should watch it again and try to see it through your eyes. I really didn't see what you are talking about at all. I did see Lee trying to be honourable and do the right thing--and I believe he had genuine compassion for Sam, who I know he respects (foolishly!).
I wish I could still be in the raptures you're in.
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Yep, I care about you finding the show enjoyable at least to some extent. I’m very sorry you’re disappointed and I’m just sharing my positive perspective as I know that it might help slightly even if you don’t feel the way I do and don’t agree with me ;)
I’d had my highs and lows with BSG, there were moments of desperation for me similar to yours in the second half of S2 and in S3, so I understand the state of mind you're probably in. I’ll just continue to disagree with you and point you out the reasons why if you don’t mind.
There were so many big issues right then! I found it absurd that ANYone's reaction was to go for a semi-romantic drink.
I see. But the way I perceive it is that Lee was also shocked with this revelation about Earth. His dad started drinking, Roslin completely shut out the external world around her… There’s a moment when you can’t react, you can’t make further decisions or deal with those big issues at hand, you have to just come out of that state of numbness and utter disbelief and I think Lee’s coping mechanism here was this need to talk to someone close enough that had to be satiated. Dee was that someone, because there wasn’t any other person available at that moment and she’s technically his wife and they’ve come a long way together. It made sense to me up until the point when he kissed her, which was Moore’s stupid manner to reinforce the drama of her suicide.
now here's the other alternaship onscreen with the spouse endangered... bit coincidental? no?
Sure it’s not a coincidence, Lee and Kara have to deal with their spouses before they can even attempt to give each other another chance - and I’m sure this is where it’s coming. Of course it’s a trite move to make a spouse take a bullet and have Kara sit beside his bed. I’m not saying I like it. But I believe that the mortal danger Sam’s in is the only way for her to start addressing the problems that she’s been avoiding to face out of confusion and fear.
Like you don't see where I'm getting my perspective from
Oh I see it, Bop. I could focus on all the worrying aspects as well if I wanted too. But all in all, I just see this differently and I’m not trying to make you change your mind, I’m merely sharing my standpoint.
She's still married to him, she sleeps with him, she stood with him when they found Earth... I think she loves him, deeply, completely. Otherwise we would have seen her avoid him.
I disagree completely. She’s been avoiding him since her return!
Yes she’s married to him, she didn’t exactly have time to ‘unmarry’ him with her visions and obsession about Earth, did she? She slept with him only because he kept pushing and that was a totally ugly… old-Kara behavior under huge stress when she was about to lose her frakking mind. But don’t turn a blind eye to the fact that she told him their marriage had been a joke, an attempt for her to escape since day one! That’s a huge admission for Kara and that’s what really matters. As for standing with him when they found Earth, Bop… this is absolutely jealous Lee talking in you! :)) Just try to come out of Lee’s perspective of hurt pride and heart and see the real picture. She didn’t CHOOSE to stand with Anders, she chose to have a quiet moment alone and come to the memorial hall and stand with Kat… or the memory of Kat and all those people she knew that gave their lives for the dream of Earth that Kara thought humans were about to see coming true. It was like a quiet prayer… a few minutes to honor their memory and their sacrifice, a very private moment… And Sam approached from behind and invaded that private space for a hundredth time because he doesn’t seem to get that Kara Thrace is done with him. Just rewatch it! The expression on her face changes when she notices him by her left side, she doesn’t look at him, her body tenses and she clenches her jaw.
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She’s staying with him because he’s her husband and a fellow crewmate. All I’m saying is that she would’ve done the same thing for ANYone. Had it been Helo to get a bullet, she would’ve stayed with him all the same!
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Ok, we’ve established you’re not angry at Kara, that’s already something. :) You have every right to be angry at writers… just don’t make too many assumptions. What we saw with Kara and Sam in BOTS doesn’t pose any threat to L/K, it can’t even be called shippy, more importantly, it doesn’t diminish the strength of feelings and uniqueness of the bond between Lee and Kara, on the contrary, they’ve come to accept their feelings and be at peace with them. Every second of their shared screen time in S4 screamed of how very much in love our pilots (with a clear accent on Kara this time! finally!) are. She never laughed and smiled with Sam the way she did with Lee… and the beaming looks of adoration she was giving him in Six Of One and Revelations mean everything.
But I bet you there IS some epic soulmates aspect to Sam's death.
I don’t think so. I just think that she’s somehow connected to all of the final Five and we’re about to learn how and maybe why exactly. I think this is a way to address some of those issues about him being a cylon, her not knowing what she is. Don’t forget that Kara’s a deeply damaged woman and she’s been through all new kinds of hell lately… she wouldn’t think about or deal with those issues without some pushing circumstances. She’s too confused scared and doesn’t have as many emotional strength as we’d like her to have. I think we’ll have to forgive her that. And Sam’s current condition and his revelations he’s about to spill may be those pushing circumstances.
And even if there isn't... Lee made it clear that he was there for Kara if she wanted him. Kara has ignored that.
Oh don’t get all Lee-fangirly with me, I’m a fangirl myself and I get that perspective! :) But if we’re being objective - Lee never made it clear that she could have him in a romantic sense of word after her death Openly! He never said that. He never divorced Dee. In Six Of One the official scene was all about their love and his support and acceptance of her as Kara (even if cylon) and about acceptance of their need to separate to fulfill the destinies that seemed more important to both of them than being together at that moment - Lee representing people’s will in quorum and Kara finding Earth.
Even Jamie told us in one of his last interviews that “there's a lot to be decided about what her return means, and Lee just accepted that in S4.0 because accepting it is easier than confronting it. He loves her. He always will. But Lee walked away from that love and left it unexplored; they need to understand what has actually happened”.
If she turns to Lee after Sam dies then that looks like she's treating Lee as second choice.
I think Kara did choose... she told Lee “except me” in Six of One and looked at him like she wanted him to shoot her for making those mistakes, like she wanted to turn back time and fix everything and was acknowledging his right to never forgive her or give her a second chance as well as her own eternal need for him. Since then Earth and mission were first for her and Lee and no other man - was second.
We haven't seen her with Sam in a close manner since the Demetrius (where BTW, she told him their marriage was a lie, a way for her to run away, told him to leave her alone and then when he refused had sex with him in her ugly old fashion since she was under much stress) and even last night, she ignored him and went to check Helo first until Sam was shot. Now I just hope she gets to say that the choice’s been made years ago and/or for Sam to finally let her go and accept that they were never meant to be.
This is ridiculous what a small act of concern and loyalty to the man Kara cares about can do to shippers.
But I just should remember it doesn't mean anything when she does that.
Like hell it doesn’t!
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Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't agree at all. I wish I did! I really really wish I did! But I have never felt our pilots were further apart. Six of One was the last time I felt they were really 'together'. I got my hopes up in the last episode but saw more practical comradeness than shippiness (which is fine! at least that's something!) but every other moment on screen in S4? Has seemed really cold and distant to me. It felt like Kara deliberately pulled back from that moment of intimacy in Six of One.
Sam’s current condition and his revelations he’s about to spill may be those pushing circumstances.
You obviously know stuff I don't. I haven't even seen the trailer, but I take it this is based on that? It sounds terrible. I don't think I want to see the next episode. But hey, I better just face up to it. I do think Kara needs to deal with the issues with Sam and I'd rather she did so than have Sam die without her doing so. Like you say, she kind of needs to be pushed into dealing with these things.
In Six Of One the official scene was all about their love and his support and acceptance of her as Kara
I always saw even the official version as way, waaaaay more than that. I saw it as a non-verbal but nonetheless clear pledge to Kara that he would be there if/when she wanted him, but that it was up to her. I think that was very clear to Kara. She promptly ran back to her husband. I think that's pretty crystal clear. Whereas Lee did not sleep with Dee again--and do we know that he didn't divorce Dee? I thought he had.
It was the writers' decision that led to Lee leaving that love 'unexplored'--the writers don't view the Lee/Kara relationship as important any more, and I'm convinced that at least some of them are Kara/Sam shippers.
Since then Earth and mission were first for her and Lee and no other man - was second.
Er did you miss the bits where she was sleeping with her husband or tramping around on Earth with Leoben?
We haven't seen her with Sam in a close manner since the Demetrius
Not true. I read a lot into her choice to be with him when they found Earth, rather than with Lee and Adama, or with the pilots. That was a VERY pointed decision. Despite being the one leading them to Earth, she wanted to be with her husband. Also, she reacted unblinkingly to discovering he was a Cylon (and according to Ron was going to kiss him in joy/acceptance!). I expect we'll see a lot more of that now.
I'm sorry you find it ridiculous, but this is what I've seen on the show. I know its natural for shippers to cling to hope, and hey I got excited myself last week when Lee and Kara were on screen so much together. But really, Kara was just on a massive high about having a fight to fight again. I saw several people comment that Lee 'could have been anyone' and that's sort of how I feel now too--she was happy he had her back, but she's still very much a 'solo' Kara Thrace, and I don't think we should read anything too shippy into them fighting together. At least, we should but the writers don't want us to. ;)
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He-he. Again, I don’t agree. She’s been very close with him in Revelations and SAGN… She was willing to tell him everything about finding her body on the surface. That is HUGE.
And in Revelations… oh my… just look at her shining face in Adama’s quarters, she’s beaming at Lee, flirting, calling him Mr. Prez, saying they’ll walk those halls together. She stands so close… she’s practically leaning into his body near the table - that’s how much she wants his proximity. She’s so in love and so openly it hurts to watch. But Lee’s too engulfed in his father’s absence and probable death, that’s why he comes across as a cold and distant one in this scene.
It’s such an irony that many Kara-fans find that Lee has been cold to Kara since Six of One. I can’t agree with both points of view maybe because I’m a Lee fan and Kara fan two in one. They’re connected more than ever... even when their moods don’t match.
I haven't even seen the trailer, but I take it this is based on that?
Yep, exactly. This was the first preview trailer I watched since S4.5 started. I’m trying to stay spoiler free but after BOTS just couldn’t help myself.
It sounds terrible. I don't think I want to see the next episode.
Oh, this will certainly be a very hard episode to watch! I just have to remind myself that Anders is badly injured and she thinks he might die....so it’s natural for her to focus on him. It doesn't mean she will run off and have his babies.
At least with SAGN I didn’t know that there were Lee/Dee scenes coming. Although who knows what’s better to be prepared and to know beforehand or to take it all in one unexpected swallow.
I always saw even the official version as way, waaaaay more than that. I saw it as a non-verbal but nonetheless clear pledge to Kara that he would be there if/when she wanted him, but that it was up to her.
Of course! Because you saw it from Lee’s perspective first and foremost. He does tell her all that in a non verbal form. But Kara’s too damaged and insecure to be certain. For Kara what he did means that he accepted her and believed her, which is a huge relief, but it doesn’t mean “come back and if you’re willing to try again - I’m yours”. That’s too much of a step and they need to really talk about it and verbalise it.
Let me tell you that for her it hurt that he came to see her in the brig only when he was going to leave Galactica and when Lee walked in and she said the bit about "except me" and Lee did respond with Especially you... he did all that handshaking and once again turned and was about to walk away! And it was Kara who said....LEE.....which brought him back instantly. But he was walking away....what if she hadn't said “Lee!”. It's all there. He's hesitates and she's also uncertain and vulnerable.
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I think that was very clear to Kara. She promptly ran back to her husband. I think that's pretty crystal clear.
No it wasn’t that clear to her unfortunately. She always has tremendous doubt; especially after all they’ve been through. We’re talking about pilots trying to be romantically involved here and Six of One scene isn’t enough to make moves in that direction, not for Lee just as not for Kara. And Lee’s still married to Dee and she to Sam… they’re too grown up now to attempt being close in a romantic sense of word before they deal with their marriages.
And don’t exaggerate, she didn’t run back to Anders, it was Anders who insisted on being with her on that mission and imposed himself on her. I’ve talked about Demetrius above; had there been Lee on that ship - her destructive sex with Sam would never have happened, just as had there been Kara on Galactica - Lee would have never gone to have a drink with Dee/kissed her. Do we have to conclude that Lee ran off to Dee to renew his vows and abandoned Kara on Earth because he doesn’t love her as well? That’s bullshit.
Whereas Lee did not sleep with Dee again--and do we know that he didn't divorce Dee? I thought he had.
Sex doesn’t necessarily mean something to Kara, shouldn’t you know that by now? Especially in such an angry destructive form.
Lee definitely didn’t divorce Dee, they both were wearing their rings till her last day. They just haven’t been living together since Baltar’s trial.
It was the writers' decision that led to Lee leaving that love 'unexplored'--the writers don't view the Lee/Kara relationship as important any more
Oh they do Bop! And Jamie was totally talking from Lee’s POV. What is interesting about his words is that he implies that Lee is not certain, he doesn’t know what she is and he's chosen to not spend time thinking about the implications of what her being back means because it’s too painful to think beyond the fact that she's there and she's real. They both haven’t dealt with her being back… and what it means to them.
Er did you miss the bits where she was sleeping with her husband or tramping around on Earth with Leoben?
Man… you will never let go of that Demetrius thing, will you? Leoben was just following her like a dog… she didn’t invite him for a walk.
Not true. I read a lot into her choice to be with him when they found Earth, rather than with Lee and Adama, or with the pilots. That was a VERY pointed decision. Despite being the one leading them to Earth, she wanted to be with her husband.
OMG. REWATCH. I already said that above. Absolutely not the way I see it!
Also, she reacted unblinkingly to discovering he was a Cylon
Oh really? Rewatch! *headdesk* And I don’t know what the hell RDM wanted her to do, but I know for sure what Katee PLAYED. I saw it with my own eyes… shock, betrayal, all reflected on her face… she played it like Kara was sick and restraining herself from throwing up. Watch my last vid Diamonds, I nail that scene and her vision very pointedly there. The fact that Kara doesn’t get a chance to act on that feeling of betrayal (unlike Adama) is another tragedy… she doesn’t have time… and then she discovers her own body and it calls everything into question.
I saw several people comment that Lee 'could have been anyone' and that's sort of how I feel now too
Lee is not anyone, has never been - only he can make her feel that way.
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I have not yet watched this week's episode--I have obviously had a lot of other priorities this week, and now that I have the time, I find myself pretty unwilling to as I gather it's all about Sam. I fear that if I watch it will undo what you've said here and I'll be back to thinking 'yeah, the writers think Kara/Sam is the OTP'. When, actually... you really persuaded me otherwise here, even if you didn't set out to. I'd prefer to believe what you believe: that K/L is still important to them, even if they won't let the two characters be together.
Thank you so much. No-one else has been able to shake my perspective before--their arguments have sounded so hollow and weak and wishful thinking. *hugs*
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I know, my own peak point of jealousy was in the late S2 and then during the hiatus when I was so heartbroken I thought I’d never recover… I had serious doubts over Kara’s choices and her obsession with the rescue mission etc.
It doesn't help that I find Sam despicable.
When it comes to Sam, I can’t find a single character trait that I’d personally find worth genuine respect. I’ve always disliked him heavily. And don’t tell me he’s HOT… I think that’s the worst argument in favor of Sam’s character that this fandom has ever put forward. ;)
…now that I have the time, I find myself pretty unwilling to as I gather it's all about Sam.
It’s not so much about Sam as it is about the cylons in general, Ellen, Cavil and the difference between skin jobs and FF; Sam’s just the cylon Ron picked to tell the 3000-year history in 45 minutes. There’s a rift between form and content in this episode imo.
I mean, I like the content; they’ve finally started making sense in the universe's mythology/chronology and giving us some pretty fascinating answers we’ve been waiting for. That's a huge plus in my book.
But the form, the way it’s squeezed into one episode feels rushed and tedious in exposition at the same time… and I get that they don’t have much time left but I have an urge to say… hey guys, what were you thinking writing those multiple Baltar sex scenes in S4 instead of telling the story the way you could’ve and should’ve told so that the viewer didn’t have to finish watching episodes like No Exit feeling as if he has just been seriously mindfrakked?)
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Well, without spoiling you I can say that I had no problem with her being there comforting him. She does love and care about him, I’m at peace with that because it’s a very different kind of affection compared to the one she feels for Lee. I also find that there was nothing shippy about it and she was very guilty and a bit selfish when it came to the info she was personally interested in too. Very typical Kara. Maybe the only difference is that she never tended to speak about her guilt out loud before she died; now she does, but the screen time she shared with Sam in this episode didn't feel like OMG Grand True Love Forever at all.
Also, no matter how hard it is for a Lee fan to realize she never showed such concern when Lee was shot, I must step aside from this bitterness and admit that speaking up her mind with Anders now is way much healthier than bottling up her guilt, acting like she doesn’t give a shit and deciding to keep silence and let the rage and self-loathing kill her from the inside - the way she did with Lee in S2. In that respect, I’m glad she acted on her feeling of guilt this time, took responsibility as a wife and was near Sam.
I'd prefer to believe what you believe: that K/L is still important to them, even if they won't let the two characters be together.
RDM’s comments in the recent podcast about Kara’s protective behavior in No Exit were: “She’s always been in love with Anders to an extent, even when that’s been supplanted by her feelings for Lee Adama”. I’m glad he acknowledges that Kara cares for Sam and loves him, although her feelings for Lee have a much stronger magnitude. And I think his “to an extent” bit is really important and telling as well.
I think there is far too much going on at the moment for Lee and Kara to do any kind of personal relationship moves. But the promo showed that they will be back to sharing the space together in the next episode… one way or the other.
Thank you so much. No-one else has been able to shake my perspective before--their arguments have sounded so hollow and weak and wishful thinking. *hugs*
Oh K, I’m glad I’ve been able to cheer you up a little and make you want to see the story from a different angle. :) It’s really sad when you watch the show enjoying many of its moments and see your friend being in such a deep letdown, because a considerable part of being a fan and a L/K shipper resides in sharing the everlasting hope that comes from a vision of this insane affection love and connection that the actors convey in every sec they are on screen together.
Even if the feeling doesn’t last long as you say, I think your reaction means that my thoughts were worth being spilled. *HUGS*
I’m with you till the bitter end, regardless of whether you hate it or love it.
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