Sorry you didn't like the ep, bop! I really did, despite the K/S stuff (my opinions about this are very similar to those of m_a_r_i_k_s and daybreak777). I really hope the show can redeem itself in your eyes by the end--it's holding its own with me at the moment.
I do hear ya, though, on some things. The mutiny was tied up too neatly overall, and ITA that Adama is *not* handling the PR well. Which makes me sad, 'cause I think he's done the best he knows how for the most part and has good reasons for the decisions he's made (Gaeta saying he just left them to rot on NC? Though Gaeta for the most part had very good points in his argument against Adama, I felt that was a bit unfair. Adama came back as soon as he had a chance of getting them off that planet. And he was completely against the fleet settling there in the first place, as well!). And yes, the Roslin/Adama teary reunions in practically every ep are getting old.
Re: Lee condoning the firing squad. The execution of Zarek and Gaeta seemed to be a day or so later, so you never know. Some kind of hearing (though obviously not a real trial or anything) could have happened. But even if it didn't I have to say I really don't hold that against Lee. Zarek and Gaeta were a threat, and as long as they were alive that wouldn't change. They were a case of "clear and present danger" in that their rhetoric could have continued to incite the other mutineers, and there is no question in my mind that their remaining alive would have meant a constant threat to the president and to the admiral and ultimately to everyone who stayed loyal to the government and/or military. Adama might *have* to pardon most of the other mutineers simply because the human race must go on and because they participated in varying degrees and whatnot (Kelly even switched sides!), but not executing Zarek and Gaeta would have allowed for the growth of some of the remaining seeds of mutiny that must exist throughout the fleet. Furthermore, cases in which the leaders are executed and the rest are pardoned are many in history, so BSG's writers may very well have modeled those last minutes after such a case.
Oh, and Romo! I loved his stuff in this ep---waaaaay better than what we got with him in "Sine Qua Non" for sure!
Though Gaeta for the most part had very good points in his argument against Adama, I felt that was a bit unfair. Adama came back as soon as he had a chance of getting them off that planet. And he was completely against the fleet settling there in the first place, as well! Yes, one thing which I have found very well written is the way that Gaeta's arguments are largely extremely sound and fair but they veer into hyperbole around some particularly emotional issues. And that highlights how Adama's actions can appear in a different light to someone who isn't unquestioningly on his side. I find that very believable and interesting, while agreeing that it's not the whole truth. That was why, for me, I was desperate for a dialogue to be opened between the mutineers and Adama/Roslin. For there to be some explanation from A/R of how things had come about, some compassion... and for the mutineers to get a chance to voice their fears and anger and then come to a place where they needed to move forward together. HA! Instead we got this OTT clampdown and refusal to discuss any of the valid issues.
I hope they do pardon the rest of them. I assume they will. And I see where BSG is coming from, but the result is that in having NO dialogue at all between the authorities and those concerned about a Cylon Alliance, by simply saying 'you're wrong', they have lost my sympathy forever. Just a personal thing, I guess.
in having NO dialogue at all between the authorities and those concerned about a Cylon Alliance, by simply saying 'you're wrong', they have lost my sympathy forever. Just a personal thing, I guess.
No, I do see what you are saying. I was thinking this evening as I was driving home just about how much actually *talking* to the people would have helped. But Laura and Bill are still stuck in the way things used to be, much as they would deny this. Before the Colonies were destroyed, there was an immense distance between the president and the admiral of the fleet from the people (as there is here in our modern world)...and this was okay; anything less wouldn't have made sense then, really. But now, as Lee has said, they are a gang. The rules have changed, but these two haven't. I guess I both admire them for sticking to their guns and doing what they feel is right even when it's unpopular and even when others don't approve of how they're getting it done (leadership is hard, and BSG has done a great job of demonstrating just how hard, I think) but I also see where there is anger that Roslin and Adama seem so superior and unwilling to really *listen* to the civilians... Idk. They are certainly not perfect leaders, but isn't that the whole point? They've broken down here, and maybe justice has broken down a bit too on their watch, but as Roslin has said, as long as there are people around to judge them in the future, they will have succeeded in what they set out to do. Maybe Adama and Roslin don't deserve our sympathy...but I have to say that I do sympathize with them and respect what they've had to do over the course of the series. Nothing they've done was with malicious intent and they've always wanted what's best for the people, whether they always did a stellar job of articulating this to the people or not.
(Sorry, I'm rambling! Will stop now. I so enjoy discussing our different POVs--BSG does provide some great topics of conversation, I must say. :) )
how much actually *talking* to the people would have helped. I honestly do believe it would have made an immense difference. And maybe I'm naive, but I expected the mutiny to result in some dialogue. I expected there to be some horrible consequences, and probably for Gaeta to lose his life, but also for it to be a wake-up call for Adama or Roslin. Or if not for them, then for Lee to step in and realise that if he didn't take over, then things would really get out of control. I guess I'm just really disappointed that there was no sign of it causing any kind of change in approach for any of the authorities.
I guess I both admire them for sticking to their guns and doing what they feel is right even when it's unpopular and even when others don't approve of how they're getting it done I felt like that for a long time, but now there are two things which have caused me to lose faith in them. The first is that I don't really believe that the Cylon alliance IS in the humans' best interests--it still hasn't been clearly explained to me, let alone the rest of the Fleet. And secondly, maybe even more importantly, both Adama and Roslin have expressed an unwillingness to keep leading, an exhaustion and lack of emotional connection with the people they're leading--they freely admit it. They're all WILL now, and no heart. For me, that's the point at which a leader should know to step down. But they won't relinquish the reins.
I find the discussion very interesting too--thank you! I've been thinking further about it and I realise that even since 4.5 started I have shifted in my opinion and in terms of what I want to see happen.
Adama and Roslin were good people once--for me this is a story about how good people get corrupted by power, how acting like a dictator, even with good intentions, turns you into one. Gaeta's story was like that in miniature--in being driven to extremity, even doing it all for the 'best' intentions, it resulted in horrible actions and in turning into a bit of a 'monster' (Zarek is more of one, but in dealing with him Gaeta has to take some responsibility). Both stories are moving to me--but unfortunately the show frames A and R as 'right' and Gaeta as 'wrong'. I believe that's reductive. If the show were allowing both parties to appear more ambiguously I would still be emotionally engaged and I'd feel freer to feel compassionately for A and R. But being forced to view them as 'heroes' makes me choke and feel resentful. Does that make any sense?
Sure it makes sense, yeah. I think I'm just not to that point yet... I want to see where they go from here--I have to hope that A and R *will* make changes and/or that Lee *will* step up. It's the optimistic part of me! :)
I expected there to be some horrible consequences, and probably for Gaeta to lose his life, but also for it to be a wake-up call for Adama or Roslin. Or if not for them, then for Lee to step in and realise that if he didn't take over, then things would really get out of control.
Whether it will be a wake up call for Adama and Roslin we'll see right in the next episode, they didn't have time to show it in this one. And while I don't harbor much hope for Adama, I can't quite give up on Laura yet, I think she'll definitely draw some conclusions and learn from mistakes. They can't continue to ignore that so many people in the fleet (basically 25 ships out of 35) resent trusting cylons. And it's time for Lee to defend his position on this issue, not just put it in Tigh's face in the heat of a battle.
For me, it's long past the time when Lee needed to make his position clear: I couldn't believe how silent and acquiescent he was in that meeting with Helo, Tyrol, Tigh et al. To me he feels totally out of character, except for that one call to Tigh. I guess I'm scared I'll find out next week that Lee is not the Lee I love any more.
I do hear ya, though, on some things. The mutiny was tied up too neatly overall, and ITA that Adama is *not* handling the PR well. Which makes me sad, 'cause I think he's done the best he knows how for the most part and has good reasons for the decisions he's made (Gaeta saying he just left them to rot on NC? Though Gaeta for the most part had very good points in his argument against Adama, I felt that was a bit unfair. Adama came back as soon as he had a chance of getting them off that planet. And he was completely against the fleet settling there in the first place, as well!). And yes, the Roslin/Adama teary reunions in practically every ep are getting old.
Re: Lee condoning the firing squad. The execution of Zarek and Gaeta seemed to be a day or so later, so you never know. Some kind of hearing (though obviously not a real trial or anything) could have happened. But even if it didn't I have to say I really don't hold that against Lee. Zarek and Gaeta were a threat, and as long as they were alive that wouldn't change. They were a case of "clear and present danger" in that their rhetoric could have continued to incite the other mutineers, and there is no question in my mind that their remaining alive would have meant a constant threat to the president and to the admiral and ultimately to everyone who stayed loyal to the government and/or military. Adama might *have* to pardon most of the other mutineers simply because the human race must go on and because they participated in varying degrees and whatnot (Kelly even switched sides!), but not executing Zarek and Gaeta would have allowed for the growth of some of the remaining seeds of mutiny that must exist throughout the fleet. Furthermore, cases in which the leaders are executed and the rest are pardoned are many in history, so BSG's writers may very well have modeled those last minutes after such a case.
Oh, and Romo! I loved his stuff in this ep---waaaaay better than what we got with him in "Sine Qua Non" for sure!
ETA: Ugh. Sorry for all the editing!
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Yes, one thing which I have found very well written is the way that Gaeta's arguments are largely extremely sound and fair but they veer into hyperbole around some particularly emotional issues. And that highlights how Adama's actions can appear in a different light to someone who isn't unquestioningly on his side. I find that very believable and interesting, while agreeing that it's not the whole truth. That was why, for me, I was desperate for a dialogue to be opened between the mutineers and Adama/Roslin. For there to be some explanation from A/R of how things had come about, some compassion... and for the mutineers to get a chance to voice their fears and anger and then come to a place where they needed to move forward together. HA! Instead we got this OTT clampdown and refusal to discuss any of the valid issues.
I hope they do pardon the rest of them. I assume they will. And I see where BSG is coming from, but the result is that in having NO dialogue at all between the authorities and those concerned about a Cylon Alliance, by simply saying 'you're wrong', they have lost my sympathy forever. Just a personal thing, I guess.
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No, I do see what you are saying. I was thinking this evening as I was driving home just about how much actually *talking* to the people would have helped. But Laura and Bill are still stuck in the way things used to be, much as they would deny this. Before the Colonies were destroyed, there was an immense distance between the president and the admiral of the fleet from the people (as there is here in our modern world)...and this was okay; anything less wouldn't have made sense then, really. But now, as Lee has said, they are a gang. The rules have changed, but these two haven't. I guess I both admire them for sticking to their guns and doing what they feel is right even when it's unpopular and even when others don't approve of how they're getting it done (leadership is hard, and BSG has done a great job of demonstrating just how hard, I think) but I also see where there is anger that Roslin and Adama seem so superior and unwilling to really *listen* to the civilians... Idk. They are certainly not perfect leaders, but isn't that the whole point? They've broken down here, and maybe justice has broken down a bit too on their watch, but as Roslin has said, as long as there are people around to judge them in the future, they will have succeeded in what they set out to do. Maybe Adama and Roslin don't deserve our sympathy...but I have to say that I do sympathize with them and respect what they've had to do over the course of the series. Nothing they've done was with malicious intent and they've always wanted what's best for the people, whether they always did a stellar job of articulating this to the people or not.
(Sorry, I'm rambling! Will stop now. I so enjoy discussing our different POVs--BSG does provide some great topics of conversation, I must say. :) )
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I honestly do believe it would have made an immense difference. And maybe I'm naive, but I expected the mutiny to result in some dialogue. I expected there to be some horrible consequences, and probably for Gaeta to lose his life, but also for it to be a wake-up call for Adama or Roslin. Or if not for them, then for Lee to step in and realise that if he didn't take over, then things would really get out of control. I guess I'm just really disappointed that there was no sign of it causing any kind of change in approach for any of the authorities.
I guess I both admire them for sticking to their guns and doing what they feel is right even when it's unpopular and even when others don't approve of how they're getting it done
I felt like that for a long time, but now there are two things which have caused me to lose faith in them. The first is that I don't really believe that the Cylon alliance IS in the humans' best interests--it still hasn't been clearly explained to me, let alone the rest of the Fleet. And secondly, maybe even more importantly, both Adama and Roslin have expressed an unwillingness to keep leading, an exhaustion and lack of emotional connection with the people they're leading--they freely admit it. They're all WILL now, and no heart. For me, that's the point at which a leader should know to step down. But they won't relinquish the reins.
I find the discussion very interesting too--thank you! I've been thinking further about it and I realise that even since 4.5 started I have shifted in my opinion and in terms of what I want to see happen.
Adama and Roslin were good people once--for me this is a story about how good people get corrupted by power, how acting like a dictator, even with good intentions, turns you into one. Gaeta's story was like that in miniature--in being driven to extremity, even doing it all for the 'best' intentions, it resulted in horrible actions and in turning into a bit of a 'monster' (Zarek is more of one, but in dealing with him Gaeta has to take some responsibility). Both stories are moving to me--but unfortunately the show frames A and R as 'right' and Gaeta as 'wrong'. I believe that's reductive. If the show were allowing both parties to appear more ambiguously I would still be emotionally engaged and I'd feel freer to feel compassionately for A and R. But being forced to view them as 'heroes' makes me choke and feel resentful. Does that make any sense?
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Whether it will be a wake up call for Adama and Roslin we'll see right in the next episode, they didn't have time to show it in this one. And while I don't harbor much hope for Adama, I can't quite give up on Laura yet, I think she'll definitely draw some conclusions and learn from mistakes. They can't continue to ignore that so many people in the fleet (basically 25 ships out of 35) resent trusting cylons. And it's time for Lee to defend his position on this issue, not just put it in Tigh's face in the heat of a battle.
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For me, it's long past the time when Lee needed to make his position clear: I couldn't believe how silent and acquiescent he was in that meeting with Helo, Tyrol, Tigh et al. To me he feels totally out of character, except for that one call to Tigh. I guess I'm scared I'll find out next week that Lee is not the Lee I love any more.
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