The flip side. ("Pickering, why can't a woman be more like a man?")

[bookshop]

Hello to everyone coming over from metafandom!

I am very pleased at the outpouring of response to my post about gay subtext and heteronormativity.

And the thing is, you can't talk about hating the heteronormative tropes of mainstream media without facing up to the fact that having this conversation within the context of slash fandom is, well, profoundly

Comments

[zauberer_sirin]

oh god I watched Whip it the other day and IT'S THE BEST MOVIE EVER and I'm telling everybody to watch it because it's THE BEST MOVIE EVER and it makes me so happy that it exists. ♥

Other than that this post is A++++++++++. I think it puts its finger on a lot of issues that have been troubling me about slash and fandom; and other things too, namely how I feel left out of much of the slash discussion because I don't always ship slash, and I don't always ship het, but rather it's 50/50 for me so I feel excluded from both sides and I feel like my opinion matters to no one because I don't align myself with one group or the other?

[bookshop]

I LOVE WHIP IT *CLUTCHES YOU*

And I want Ruthless/Maven til my EYES BLEED :((((

[zauberer_sirin]

And I want Ruthless/Maven til my EYES BLEED

OMG YES PLEASE. I was feeling bad because I shipped it so hard.

[bookshop]

what omg why would you ever feel bad about shipping something so GLORIOUS. Juliette Lewis IN THOSE BOOTS. and the end!!!!! i want fic where Ruthless just slams her against the wall and kisses her during one of the matches and she's so stunned she lets Ruthless take the lead.

[fahye]

Goddammit, I wish I had the mental capacity to say something sagacious, but all I really want to do is wave my hands around yelling ELIZABETH BURKE!! until my pupils turn into tiny hearts.

[bookshop]

And see, I honestly HATE the way Elizabeth is written on the show, like, her entire role is to be Peter's little domestic helper and conscience and dutifully help him with all his cases, it drives me NUTS. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND KELLY FROM SAVED BY THE BELL IS ACTING HER HEART OUT and she is so fabulous, and I am so torn.

[fahye]

*nods* I do wish we got to see a lot more of her (a LOT more) and to be frank I'm happy she even gets involved with the cases at all, which says terrible, terrible things about low standards and the classic role of The Wife in these kinds of male-based procedurals. The fact that she a) clearly has a life and a career of her own, and friends that we actually see, and b) sometimes uses her unique skills and connections to help with a case, is...well, a lot more than the writers could have done, considering how much of the show is PETER, NEAL, PETER AND NEAL. Like I said. Low expectations :/ It sucks, but Better is still something, even if it's not Ideal. It's a step in the right direction.

And it's true: the actress is adorable and I really have a sense of Elizabeth as a person in her own right, someone who doesn't exist in order to object to Peter's workaholic self and his control issues, but who married him and loves him despite them. I like that her idea of 'the right thing to do' is often different to Peter's. I REALLY like,

[bookshop]

THIS IS THE PART WHERE I BEG YOU TO WATCH FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS. I have never ever seen girls written so well, on any tv show on television, let alone network television. And the relationship between coach/mrs coach (and later coach/principal coach!) is just. the best. best. best healthiest marriage portrayed on TV. They are both such amazing people but even more amazing is the way they actively work to hold their marriage together, the way they make it work and we can *see* them learning how to make it fit, not in some cheesy sitcom way where all problems are resolved in 30 minutes, but just in an ongoing struggle where we feel involved and invested and we hope so much in their relationship with each other, and we see how the strength of that relationship anchors everyone else on the show. I mean, you watch their marriage and then you come back to shows like White Collar and you just feel so ...aware of what you could have had, that you aren't being given. Not that Elizabeth is not a lovely character, but WC is just so *shallow*

[jianna]

I have this secret dream that in the next Sherlock Holmes movie Mary gets to surprise everyone by being actively involved in a case or... SOMETHING, idk.

But I get everything you're saying. It's a significant part of why I've fallen out of slash fandom as a whole (not that I wasn't generally on the sidelines the whole time anyway, not that that matters a whole lot).

I've seen this with all unpopular characters. In particular I think of the Bleach fandom. I made a secret for fandomsecrets about how I felt like Sado Yasutora deserved more love and I got tons of comments saying "OMG I LOVE CHAD!!1" and I'm like... if all of you people love him so much then where the fuck is all the fic?

This happens far far more systematically with female characters, though, to be sure. Relatedly, Bleach fandom's treatment of probably love interest Orihime is deplorable. At best she gets to hook up with her girl best friend but hardly anyone ever writes full on fic of that, now do they? Maybe it's improved, I've been out of that fandom for ages

[ojuzu]

I made a secret for fandomsecrets about how I felt like Sado Yasutora deserved more love and I got tons of comments saying "OMG I LOVE CHAD!!1" and I'm like... if all of you people love him so much then where the fuck is all the fic?

It doesn't help that he's not super-easy to write. ^ ^ I think if and when I get back into Bleach fandom, though, I'm going to try.

You know, I'm trying to think of a female character who maps to the 'spectacular, brilliant, and total weirdo' type, and the only people I'm coming up with are Yomiko Readman and Ichihara Yuuko.

paranormal magical private investigator

Okay, there NEEDS to be fic of this. Now.

[jianna]

I've never heard of either of those characters, where are they from? I'm open to trying a few episodes of pretty much anything, long as it's not too hard to find.

There does need to be fic of it! I wish I had a knack for writing. I feel like I come up with good ideas but they never turn into plots. Also, I've forgotten like... 80% of the Harry Potter canon by now, embarrassingly. It does increase enjoyment of the movies though.
/tangent.

[ojuzu]

Yomiko Readman is from a three-episode OVA called Read or Die, which is about books, steampunk, superpowers, and the two female leads. It's fantastic and you should watch it if you get the chance.

Ichihara Yuuko is from the manga xxxHOLiC, which is . . . difficult to describe. She's not the main character (the two leads in this one are male), but she is awesome. Her title(she gets a title!) is the Witch of Time and Space and she runs a slightly ominous wish-granting shop. She's quirky and awesome and she drinks too much. I love her. ♥

[oscurotrophic]

*ran straight to comment-reply* TALK WHIP IT TO ME BABY.

Also, I agree with this post. I also agreed with the original, because it's a good portion of the subconscious reasoning I used to stop interacting in fandom (because I was one of those Yahoo RPGers who masqueraded as a boy, with other girls masquerading as boys, gay boys at that, and that can be very dysfunctionalizing to a teenage girl.)

Also, I wonder if there a correlation between straight slash writers (female), and bisexual slash writers (female) and their participation in or disassociation with the reinforced patriarchy of slash fandom.

[arboretum]

I just wish all the media I consume would do me a favor and write me some women I GENUINELY ADORE

it happens sometimes. Kara Thrace & pretty much all the women on BSG before the show went insane. the women on Friday Night Lights. all the girls in this video game I am playing right now called Persona 4 ahhhh all the amazing girls and women in P4....

but it happens way too rarely. I mean, to tell the truth? I don't really give a crap about Mary in the new Holmes movie. I don't really give a crap about Irene Adler either. sorry!!!!!! I don't dislike them... I just find them wholly uninteresting. and maybe that's because of my own internalized misogyny but maybe a part of it is also because the narratives we are presented with are always ABOUT men. men who are more interesting because they are the ones the stories are about. :( maybe Mary would be interesting if the story actually gave a crap about her and her life and her desires etc etc, but honestly every time she shows up in the movie it's to fuel conflict between Holmes

[bookshop]

Yes. Yes. Yes

i'm not actually trying to be obtuse and derail you fjglkdjlkfjglksjdlfg

[arboretum]

hmmm I'm not really trying to deflect blame, I guess, or even make excuses, so much as I am just expressing a long-nursed grudge that I have.... :D

but what exactly do you mean by

But rejecting all your choices the way we always seem to do in slash fandom *can't* keep being the answer. Not if we want to grow or develop into a conscious and *truly* progressive community.

??

like does that mean... you would like us to write Arthur/Gwen or that you would like us to write Gwen/Morgana? that we should do these things, and that that would make us a more progressive community? or are you getting at something else

[two_if_by_sea]

because the narratives we are presented with are always ABOUT men. men who are more interesting because they are the ones the stories are about.

I don't have the same lack of interest in female characters that you do, but I agree with this so so so so much.

Also Aja, ♥ AMEN, SISTER.