What just happened here?
My brother's girlfriend gave me a copy of The Game for Christmas. I've been reading it self-consciously on the train, trying to obscure the cover and the spine so it looks like I'm reading any other leather-bound book, e.g. The Holy Bible
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Do you think The Game is a manual on how to become a date rapist? First of all, it's a memoir, not a how-to book. Second, the advice or techniques described in the book are all about learning to be confident and act in a way that is attractive to women.
Men, in general, are not usually open about their failures with women. Whereas entire racks of women's magazines are devoted to relationship advice, and talking to your friends about it is no big deal, men are more or less on their own. And honestly, even if a man has a friend he trusts enough to talk about his insecurities, it doesn't help much: either his friend is in the same boat, or he's a natural, and therefore has no idea how he does it or what advice to give.
So, in that context, it's pretty disappointing that you are basically asserting that any man who wants to learn why, despite being the Nice Guy everybody tells him to be, he never gets a girl's phone number --- you think he's really a closet murderer?
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I had STARTED TO read the book. That book is one of the worst pieces of misogynistic asshattery that I have ever read in my life. I read it half way through and just felt sick. That jerk does not consider women to be human beings, but dogs and little children to be dominated and manipulated. He hates and fears women, but requires constant validation from other guys, so he instructs you to go out and try to manipulate woman as though they were puppets in order to score validation points.
He is just another misogynist asshole who has profited from his assholishness.
People are complicated, but we communicate so much nonverbally that we're not necessarily aware of, and we've got insecurities and weird motivations. All of that can be played on. These guys are playing on some of the same things that The Rules (which is also bullshit, by the way) does, act in a way that will convince the person you're interested in that you're busy and important and they should be flattered by your attention, but they add a whole bunch of other creepy stuff to it, like verbal+nonverbal stuff you can do to make the object think that you're not interested in her, which gets her guard down; also, shifting the encounter from one in which she feels like you're requesting her attention into one where she's trying to convince you of her worth. It's fucking awful. But I don't doubt that it works sometimes, and that there are other things that people do and say that make us trust or like them that really ought not, and that operate on the same principles of nonverbal communication and playing on insecurities and unconscious motivations.
If you're interested in finding women to have actual relationships with, this is the wrong tree up which to bark. If you want to meet women you consider intellectual and social "equals" and with whom you might want a long-term relationship, they will either be hip to your game and see what you are doing immediately, or they will eventually figure it out and leave you in an emotionally and possibly financially destructive manner.
If you're just looking for hook-ups, hey, knock yourself out.
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I'm sure there are a lot of misogynistic assholes who take away nothing more from the book than you did, but there is a lot more in there, and Neil Strauss is not a misogynist.
Here's the flipside; a lot of men, including myself, have ruined actual relationships by doing the opposite of all the advice you despise. Saying nothing but nice things, complimenting her all the time, always letting her pick the movie or the restaurant --- it's all behavior encouraged by romantic comedies and female friends (you're such a nice guy, you'll find someone I'm sure!) but all it does is result in a total loss of respect and interest by the woman. And it should, because it's just another side of manipulative and insincere, it's just openly encouraged.
I have no plans to become a pick-up artist, but reading about that end of the spectrum has explained a lot from my personal experience, not just why I was so madly in love with my last girlfriend who treated me terribly, but also why I had no respect for the Director of Engineering (a man) at my last job.
Meanwhile, all you have done is assert that doing magic tricks in a bar is misogynistic and ineffective for finding an actual relationship. What is the correct tree up which to bark, then?
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I do recommend reading The Gift of Fear, though. I honestly think you'd find it interesting, even just in this context. I believe you're intelligent enough to sort out any correlation for yourself.
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And also also, women are not a homogenous group that all find certain characteristics attractive, we all have our own likes and dislikes, shockingly, just like men.
And also also ALSO, being a "nice guy" or a Nice Guy(tm) is only as nice as the guy actually is. Being yourself is far more important.
Sometimes it takes a while. A LONG while. I had rafts of relationship disasters, I didn't meet "the one" until I was 40 and we work every day to make it work, no games or rules other than NTN trivia and the occasional game of chess.
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We're all individuals, but we're also all human. Despite our likes and dislikes, there are behaviors we find attractive.
"Being yourself" is a meaningless cliché. I don't act the same way at my parents' house as I do with my friends at McManus after a show. Which one is really me?
As far as how long it takes --- you're confused about what stage of relationships The Game is about. It's about establishing rapport with a stranger so she can feel comfortable giving you her phone number. The advice is not about maintaining a relationship. What happens after that is outside the scope of the book (or philosophy or whatever). Some guys don't think that far ahead, and Strauss writes about them, how they get so dependent on their lines and routines that they have no idea how to act without them.
The fact that you have had "rafts of relationship disasters" shows you clearly don't understand the male perspective --- yes, it takes a while, but not a while of waiting around. It takes trial and error. If a guy has been on only one or two dates in the past year, telling him that time is all he needs is insulting. It's obvious that to continue doing what he's been doing isn't going to result in anything.
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Based on what I have read, I just thought that the general message was to approach situations with confidence and actively engage people in conversation. I believe Style mentions this somewhere in the beginning: we are just not formally taught how to interact with other people, and specifically the other sex. Some people seem to be naturally outgoing and socially adept, while others just don't appear to have it in them. If you're terrible with numbers and you recognize the need to have a well-rounded mathematical skill set, wouldn't you pick up a textbook and practice those multiplication tables?
For me personally, I had found my anxiety in public to crippling at times. To stick with such an unhealthy pattern of behavior would be foolish. The "real" anyone is not defined by the persona taken by default (in any situation, e.g., at home with family or out with fun friends). The "real" me is a quiet guy who stays in his room watching movies and playing video games. I volunteer, am kind to animals, am kind to others, but my default behavior seems to point to a rather inactive approach to interaction. The book inspires (for me at least) a change to become more active.
The whole negging and dealing with "alpha males of the group" starts to change the mating dance into a cold routine, which turns off some as they dismiss the methods as misogynist and terribly calculating. I can see why it seems like a pernicious field of study. But, the underlying belief from mensa is that sex is a deplorable act. All of the sex in the book is consensual and the women are mature enough to make their own decisions... why are you frowning upon it?
Don't lose sight of what's important to you though. If you consider yourself a nice guy, don't drop that altruistic spirit. One of my friends, who is a teetotalling all-around saint, read The Game and really got into reading about the different "schools" of thought (NLP, cocky funny, DYD, and others). His initial hesitation to throw himself into "scary" social situations quickly disappeared after practice and he was glad to have been exposed to everything. He puts everything he's learned to use in his conversations and has managed to integrate that helping spirit into his interactions. For example, the book talks about dealing with AMOGs (alpha males of a group). Your aim is to get into the catbird seat of being the alpha male. My friend isn't as aggressive when doing this and instead becomes a sort of mediator, surreptitiously encouraging less outspoken members of the group to speak up, while discouraging controlling and often more obnoxious behavior from the alpha male(s).
I must say though that the way most of the characters are depicted, Style definitely did not want readers to think of them as role models. Their behavior is questionable and their quirks are hardly something to aim for, so I guess mensa may be judging the principles being taught a bit harshly due to the dubious antics of the most visible characters of the book. (Note that some of them are indeed characters, almost fictional, because a few of them are composites of people Style learned from. I believe Juggler is actually two people.)
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Shit, after typing all of this, I don't know where I stand now. But, summarily, my stance is that you should not lose sight of why people were calling you a "nice guy" in the first place. Don't become the derivative social robots Style talks about and just recite lines. Stick to your principles of doing good, respecting women, and being a pretty nice dude and make it jibe with your newfound abilities to interact comfortably with others. Just because you're confident and know how to interact with a group of people does not mean you have to be a prick.
There was an episode of Elimidate (blech) which featured Craig, one of the more popular pick-up artists. It was on Google Video a while back and I have the video somewhere on my computer. Needless to say he won the date. Watching the episode, he was not an asshat and was rather quiet throughout the whole thing. He just carried an air of confidence and did not aggressively initiate any ill humor toward the other contestants. When provoked though, he was really quick on his feet and fired back with an appropriate quip.
Oh found it, not on Google Video anymore apparently but this search result came back on Google web:
http://attraction-chronicles.blogspot.com/2006/01/double-your-datings-craig-on-elimidate.html
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