Hm. Thanks for the links - I read the posts but I only skimmed the comments, so if I'm starting a conversation you've already covered by all means let me know and I'll go back and reread things.
I really do respect where you're coming from with this, but I think it can get pretty problematic pretty quickly, particularly when you're referring to trans folk. Gender-neutral pronouns are a gaping hole in the English language and I fully support anyone's efforts to use them more frequently, but I think respecting peoples' pronoun preferences should first. I'm a trans guy, as you could probably figure out by reading my profile, and while I agree with a many (not all, but many) of the things you wrote about gender, I'm really uncomfortable with people using gender-neutral pronouns to refer to me. Not because I think of myself as a particularly gendered person - I don't - but because of how hard I've had to fight for people to respect my identity. Which, for the record, is male. Not masculine particularly, but male.
Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I think deliberately degendering people can be really disrespectful. If it doesn't make a difference to the person, then that's one thing, but if it's someone who feels comfortable or identifies with a particular sex/gender and has expressed a pronoun preference, their preference should take precedence over the user's.
I did explain most of this in the second post, but I'll give it another go.
Well, I can see how it may feel disrespectful, so if that is a boundary for you I understand, but it doesn't feel disrespectful to me -- gendered pronouns do. Even though I do not want to seem disrespectful, it's more important to me to be true to how I feel about gender (I feel that it is a harmful set of stereotypes), so I can't bring myself to use gendered pronouns deliberately (though I still slip up sometimes). If a person doesn't like to be referred to as ze/zir, I will try to avoid that, instead only referring by name. (I'd be happy to refer to you only by name -- do you go by Sam?)
In my opinion, identity is about one's view of oneself, not other's views of one. I do see all people as just people, so if I were to use gendered pronouns, that would be a lie -- I'd be pretending to agree with gender when I do not. To me, it would be more disrespectful for me to outwardly agree when inwardly I do not, than it would be for me to disagree in language as well as mindset. I cannot believe in gender -- and while people who DO believe in gender may find this disrespectful, at least they know my honest feelings about it. I'd relate it to religious identity -- many people identify as believers in God, and they might find it disrespectful to them if I were to use a lowercase g, but if I genuinely did not believe in deity it would be nothing but a pretty lie for me to capitalize it. I am willing to make compromises on most things, and I love going out of my way to show respect, but I do not feel that it is respectful to use terms I do not believe in. Someone might feel that it is respectful to call them "sir" or "ma'am" but I believe those terms are disrespectful, so I do not use them even though others would not feel disrespected. To me those words are insulting, because they imply hierarchy (which I feel dehumanizes), so coming from me it would be an insult. I can't use terms that I consider to be insults even if someone else feels that they are compliments.
Using the terms 'she' and 'he' is to me the equivalent of using race identifiers every time one refers to a person. It only serves to allow people to create generalized pictures of people -- even if someone identifies strongly with their culture, that doesn't mean that it is relevant to every conversation. I identify as many things but I do not expect people to list all of them when referring to me; and I don't think sex is any different from skin, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
Also, I cannot (and would not if I could, as I don't believe in force) degender anyone. If I refer to someone as 'ze' that changes nothing about their identity, their behavior or dress or attitude. I simply change my own language.
I did read that, but it didn't seem to me to apply for some reason. Sorry about that.
I'm on the fence about this. Like I said before, I really do respect and appreciate where you're coming from - I disagree with the way you're applying it, but I remain interested in reading your journal if that's all right with you.
I really do respect where you're coming from with this, but I think it can get pretty problematic pretty quickly, particularly when you're referring to trans folk. Gender-neutral pronouns are a gaping hole in the English language and I fully support anyone's efforts to use them more frequently, but I think respecting peoples' pronoun preferences should first. I'm a trans guy, as you could probably figure out by reading my profile, and while I agree with a many (not all, but many) of the things you wrote about gender, I'm really uncomfortable with people using gender-neutral pronouns to refer to me. Not because I think of myself as a particularly gendered person - I don't - but because of how hard I've had to fight for people to respect my identity. Which, for the record, is male. Not masculine particularly, but male.
Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I think deliberately degendering people can be really disrespectful. If it doesn't make a difference to the person, then that's one thing, but if it's someone who feels comfortable or identifies with a particular sex/gender and has expressed a pronoun preference, their preference should take precedence over the user's.
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Well, I can see how it may feel disrespectful, so if that is a boundary for you I understand, but it doesn't feel disrespectful to me -- gendered pronouns do. Even though I do not want to seem disrespectful, it's more important to me to be true to how I feel about gender (I feel that it is a harmful set of stereotypes), so I can't bring myself to use gendered pronouns deliberately (though I still slip up sometimes). If a person doesn't like to be referred to as ze/zir, I will try to avoid that, instead only referring by name. (I'd be happy to refer to you only by name -- do you go by Sam?)
In my opinion, identity is about one's view of oneself, not other's views of one. I do see all people as just people, so if I were to use gendered pronouns, that would be a lie -- I'd be pretending to agree with gender when I do not. To me, it would be more disrespectful for me to outwardly agree when inwardly I do not, than it would be for me to disagree in language as well as mindset. I cannot believe in gender -- and while people who DO believe in gender may find this disrespectful, at least they know my honest feelings about it. I'd relate it to religious identity -- many people identify as believers in God, and they might find it disrespectful to them if I were to use a lowercase g, but if I genuinely did not believe in deity it would be nothing but a pretty lie for me to capitalize it. I am willing to make compromises on most things, and I love going out of my way to show respect, but I do not feel that it is respectful to use terms I do not believe in. Someone might feel that it is respectful to call them "sir" or "ma'am" but I believe those terms are disrespectful, so I do not use them even though others would not feel disrespected. To me those words are insulting, because they imply hierarchy (which I feel dehumanizes), so coming from me it would be an insult. I can't use terms that I consider to be insults even if someone else feels that they are compliments.
Using the terms 'she' and 'he' is to me the equivalent of using race identifiers every time one refers to a person. It only serves to allow people to create generalized pictures of people -- even if someone identifies strongly with their culture, that doesn't mean that it is relevant to every conversation. I identify as many things but I do not expect people to list all of them when referring to me; and I don't think sex is any different from skin, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
Also, I cannot (and would not if I could, as I don't believe in force) degender anyone. If I refer to someone as 'ze' that changes nothing about their identity, their behavior or dress or attitude. I simply change my own language.
Reply
I'm on the fence about this. Like I said before, I really do respect and appreciate where you're coming from - I disagree with the way you're applying it, but I remain interested in reading your journal if that's all right with you.
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