Re: Pope John Paul IIbavApril 5 2005, 08:15:20 UTC
I can understand that feeling, and from talking to people (that is, talking to people that don't go either wildly to one end of the spectrum or to the other end when talking about Catholicism or the Pope) that seems to be a common feeling.
I have a lot of respect for him not for what he didn't do, but what he did do in his lifetime (not just the 26 years as Pope). He could have done better in some ways or be more progressive, sure, but I think that things he did have helped pave the way for progressiveness, if that's what is needed.
Ultimately, he was human with all the good and the bad that being human entails, as well as the Vicar of Christ.
Re: the "Vicar of Christ" (& other humanz)sighrisApril 5 2005, 14:09:58 UTC
Yes, ultimately the pope (any & all of the popes) was/were human with all the good and the bad that being human entails... and the same could be said of Aldof Hitler, the Dalia Lama, Prez. Bush, Sinead O'Connor, and my mother.
The pope (any of them) was a man who rose to the top of... uh... an interesting & powerful org. and thus, for that alone, must be held with respect... but again, the same could be said of Bush, Sinead O'Connor (although to a much lesser extent I would not argue), the Dalia Lama (I guess it could be argued that he did not "rise" to the top but was put there, but he is still a highly respected leader), and Hitler (who not only rose to the top of the Nazi party but helped build it)...
- but one thing that is can not be said (with general agreement) about any of the others... they never claimed to be "the Vicar of Christ"...
So now I am curious... what does it mean (to you) to be "the Vicar of Christ"?
Sighris - a friend ov a friend, and a confirmed catholic Xian as well as a taoist.
Re: the "Vicar of Christ" (& other humanz)bavApril 5 2005, 17:32:45 UTC
Yes, ultimately the pope (any & all of the popes) was/were human with all the good and the bad that being human entails... and the same could be said of Aldof Hitler, the Dalia Lama, Prez. Bush, Sinead O'Connor, and my mother.
Agreed. There were some pretty decent popes (and I include John Paul II in these), and there were some pretty horrid popes.
I can visualize each of your examples as "Pope", and most of them fall to the horrid end of the spectrum, except the Dali Lama (who isn't that far off in the sense of being a pretty decent religious leader) and you mom who I have no basis to judge.
The pope (any of them) was a man who rose to the top of... uh... an interesting & powerful org. and thus, for that alone, must be held with respect... but again, the same could be said of Bush, Sinead O'Connor (although to a much lesser extent I would not argue), the Dalia Lama (I guess it could be argued that he did not "rise" to the top but was put there, but he is still a highly respected leader), and Hitler (who not only rose to the top
( ... )
The Sun Earth ConnectionsighrisApril 7 2005, 01:51:32 UTC
Bav, you wrote:> > I'm a Jew by technicallity, an atheist by nature, and > a sun worshipper by personal choice. I do not accept Christ > as my saviour, go to any sort of services regularly, and > have a hard time with the concept of God in general.
BTW: 1) I am also a transhumanist. 2) The concept of "God" is simple to me: Everything put together = "God". 3) In some ways I am also an atheist, but I think "Taoist" fits me better. 4) "Worship" is a strong word that I will almost never use... but I am very grateful that we have the Sun (and the Earth which has plenty of Air & Water). If I worship anything it is "Spirit" and thee Power/Force that juggles Earth, Air, Fire & Water to create "Spirit".
Comments 11
Sighris
- the once and future no-thing
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I have a lot of respect for him not for what he didn't do, but what he did do in his lifetime (not just the 26 years as Pope). He could have done better in some ways or be more progressive, sure, but I think that things he did have helped pave the way for progressiveness, if that's what is needed.
Ultimately, he was human with all the good and the bad that being human entails, as well as the Vicar of Christ.
Reply
The pope (any of them) was a man who rose to the top of... uh... an interesting & powerful org. and thus, for that alone, must be held with respect... but again, the same could be said of Bush, Sinead O'Connor (although to a much lesser extent I would not argue), the Dalia Lama (I guess it could be argued that he did not "rise" to the top but was put there, but he is still a highly respected leader), and Hitler (who not only rose to the top of the Nazi party but helped build it)...
- but one thing that is can not be said (with general agreement) about any of the others... they never claimed to be "the Vicar of Christ"...
So now I am curious... what does it mean (to you) to be "the Vicar of Christ"?
Sighris
- a friend ov a friend, and a confirmed catholic Xian as well as a taoist.
Reply
Agreed. There were some pretty decent popes (and I include John Paul II in these), and there were some pretty horrid popes.
I can visualize each of your examples as "Pope", and most of them fall to the horrid end of the spectrum, except the Dali Lama (who isn't that far off in the sense of being a pretty decent religious leader) and you mom who I have no basis to judge.
The pope (any of them) was a man who rose to the top of... uh... an interesting & powerful org. and thus, for that alone, must be held with respect... but again, the same could be said of Bush, Sinead O'Connor (although to a much lesser extent I would not argue), the Dalia Lama (I guess it could be argued that he did not "rise" to the top but was put there, but he is still a highly respected leader), and Hitler (who not only rose to the top ( ... )
Reply
> I'm a Jew by technicallity, an atheist by nature, and
> a sun worshipper by personal choice. I do not accept Christ
> as my saviour, go to any sort of services regularly, and
> have a hard time with the concept of God in general.
"Sun worshipper by personal choice" eh?
You might find these interesting:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sighris/82172.html
http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov
BTW:
1) I am also a transhumanist.
2) The concept of "God" is simple to me: Everything put together = "God".
3) In some ways I am also an atheist, but I think "Taoist" fits me better.
4) "Worship" is a strong word that I will almost never use... but I am very grateful that we have the Sun (and the Earth which has plenty of Air & Water). If I worship anything it is "Spirit" and thee Power/Force that juggles Earth, Air, Fire & Water to create "Spirit".
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