(no subject)
Okay, I've seen some discussion about this on my f-lists and thought, hey, why not get my thoughts out there, too. I mean, I know I'm not going to be changing opinions here, if you agree with me you'll probably continue to agree with me, and if you don't, well you probably still won't agree with me, but at least I'll make you think. That's the great thing about discussion, getting arguments out there and making people think things they haven't before, or maybe give more credit to ideas they only passed over before. Whatever. On to the actual discussion. Cut to make it easier:
Disclaimer: First off, cause I think kaladhwen is one of the ones that I've seen post about this most and brings up Mormon point of view, I want to say that I don't really blame any group for Prop 8. Catholics have a higher population as do many other religious populations, but this isn't about religion. Not really. It's about people who make these decisions on an individual biases, and no organization deserves to be blamed, vandalized or harassed over this decision, and no individual does either. It's your own personal belief on whether you think marriage should be between a man and a woman or just two adults who love each other. Now, when you start thinking your belief should dictate what I, or a group of people do... that's when I start to get a problem, but that's not the fault of the individual, that's the fault of a society that makes us think we have the right to infringe on other people's beliefs... unless they're religious.
Separation of Church and State: Now, our country was set on a very lovely ideal that the church shouldn't have any say on governmental issues and the government shouldn't have any much say on how religion functions. Now, some people argue that marriage is a religious institution, but if it is, does that mean atheist shouldn't be able to get married? If you start on that train of thought then you're going to go into the whole, which religious institution does marriage belong to and that's a very VERY bad path.
Marriage is a government and, even more so, a social institution. It's about taxes and rights to see a person when they're in the hospital and a lot of different things. People get married for a LOT of different reasons (which I'll get into later) and I think most people like to argue that love is the best and should be the only reason. Now, I've seen some very successful marriages that weren't set up for that reason; a Muslim coworker had an arranged marriage and they are very happy.
Anyway, I'm getting off my train of thought. If your religion is what tells you gay people shouldn't get married, then that's your churches decision; they can say, "I won't let gay people get married IN MY CHURCH." But how is it a churches right to say who can and can't get married in the court house, or someone else's church? That's one of the great things about religion, there are so DAMN MANY OF THEM! and if you don't agree with one, you can go find another that you do agree with! And there are churches out there that don't think it's wrong for two people of the same sex to get married.
It demeans my marriage!: I've heard this argument so much, and it's the worst argument I've heard. First off, if someone else getting married demeans your marriage there's something wrong with your marriage. I love my husband with all my heart and soul, and nothing that anyone else does is going to make me love him less or make my promise, my marriage to him, mean any less. If Gay people get married, if Hitler gets married, it doesn't mean my marriage means any less. Cause it's MY MARRIAGE, not theirs. (this is my husband's argument, so I will credit him here)
Secondly, if you think gay people getting married demeans your marriage, how about about the divorce rate, which is a little hard to estimate, but is now over 50%. How about people who cheat on their spouses, or get married just to move out of their houses, or because their parents told them to (I told you I'd get back to reasons for getting married), or people who go into marriage thinking, well if it doesn't turn out well, I can always get a divorce, or people who beat their spouses. How about arranged marriages that are meant to bring families together of for land ownership purposes. It doesn't happen as much in the US anymore, but it still happens in a lot of other places (and does still happen here, just not as often). I don't want to step on toes, if you want to get married to get out of your house I'm not going to say that's not wrong. That's your individual choice, and doesn't make me think less of marriage. I'm just saying, you can't make a big deal about two men or two women getting married when marriage can be SO different to each person just as an institution between a man and a woman.
Friends will just get married for tax cuts: First off, this is actually an argument I heard and one of the stupidest ones (but not quite the topper). People are not going to go through the social stigma of getting married to a friend of the same gender just to get tax cuts. And besides that, there are plenty of people who have friends of different genders who will get married for that reason, and that's actually going to happen more often, but as stated above, who the fuck are we to say why someone should or shouldn't get married, it's their choice.
I've heard the, "If we start letting gays get married it's just one more step to letting people marry their pets." I don't even want to go into how offensive that one is, just implying that gay people are animals.
There are many others, which I can't think of right now, and I would encourage you to voice them!
Just a last note (to my essay, I guess, wow) I just want to say, there are a lot of people that you're not going to agree with. I have friends that are against gay marriage, or a lot of things that I believe, and that doesn't mean I can't be friends with them, or that you shouldn't be friends with them. First off, hearing different points of views is extremely good for a person, challenging your own beliefs will either make them stronger, or realize, hey, I shouldn't just blindly believe in something without thinking about it. It's makes your opinions and arguments stronger. People in this culture have so forgotten how to argue agreeably. We think, if I don't agree with this person I have to blow them up.
Our country was founded on an idea that I don't have to agree with my neighbor! We can both live our own lives with our own beliefs, share our own, but should not infringe on theirs. Because their beliefs are just as valid as yours. We both have the right to practice our beliefs as long as they don't infringe on other's personal freedoms. That's what is so amazing about this country. And I wish we could really get back to that.
Disclaimer: First off, cause I think kaladhwen is one of the ones that I've seen post about this most and brings up Mormon point of view, I want to say that I don't really blame any group for Prop 8. Catholics have a higher population as do many other religious populations, but this isn't about religion. Not really. It's about people who make these decisions on an individual biases, and no organization deserves to be blamed, vandalized or harassed over this decision, and no individual does either. It's your own personal belief on whether you think marriage should be between a man and a woman or just two adults who love each other. Now, when you start thinking your belief should dictate what I, or a group of people do... that's when I start to get a problem, but that's not the fault of the individual, that's the fault of a society that makes us think we have the right to infringe on other people's beliefs... unless they're religious.
Separation of Church and State: Now, our country was set on a very lovely ideal that the church shouldn't have any say on governmental issues and the government shouldn't have any much say on how religion functions. Now, some people argue that marriage is a religious institution, but if it is, does that mean atheist shouldn't be able to get married? If you start on that train of thought then you're going to go into the whole, which religious institution does marriage belong to and that's a very VERY bad path.
Marriage is a government and, even more so, a social institution. It's about taxes and rights to see a person when they're in the hospital and a lot of different things. People get married for a LOT of different reasons (which I'll get into later) and I think most people like to argue that love is the best and should be the only reason. Now, I've seen some very successful marriages that weren't set up for that reason; a Muslim coworker had an arranged marriage and they are very happy.
Anyway, I'm getting off my train of thought. If your religion is what tells you gay people shouldn't get married, then that's your churches decision; they can say, "I won't let gay people get married IN MY CHURCH." But how is it a churches right to say who can and can't get married in the court house, or someone else's church? That's one of the great things about religion, there are so DAMN MANY OF THEM! and if you don't agree with one, you can go find another that you do agree with! And there are churches out there that don't think it's wrong for two people of the same sex to get married.
It demeans my marriage!: I've heard this argument so much, and it's the worst argument I've heard. First off, if someone else getting married demeans your marriage there's something wrong with your marriage. I love my husband with all my heart and soul, and nothing that anyone else does is going to make me love him less or make my promise, my marriage to him, mean any less. If Gay people get married, if Hitler gets married, it doesn't mean my marriage means any less. Cause it's MY MARRIAGE, not theirs. (this is my husband's argument, so I will credit him here)
Secondly, if you think gay people getting married demeans your marriage, how about about the divorce rate, which is a little hard to estimate, but is now over 50%. How about people who cheat on their spouses, or get married just to move out of their houses, or because their parents told them to (I told you I'd get back to reasons for getting married), or people who go into marriage thinking, well if it doesn't turn out well, I can always get a divorce, or people who beat their spouses. How about arranged marriages that are meant to bring families together of for land ownership purposes. It doesn't happen as much in the US anymore, but it still happens in a lot of other places (and does still happen here, just not as often). I don't want to step on toes, if you want to get married to get out of your house I'm not going to say that's not wrong. That's your individual choice, and doesn't make me think less of marriage. I'm just saying, you can't make a big deal about two men or two women getting married when marriage can be SO different to each person just as an institution between a man and a woman.
Friends will just get married for tax cuts: First off, this is actually an argument I heard and one of the stupidest ones (but not quite the topper). People are not going to go through the social stigma of getting married to a friend of the same gender just to get tax cuts. And besides that, there are plenty of people who have friends of different genders who will get married for that reason, and that's actually going to happen more often, but as stated above, who the fuck are we to say why someone should or shouldn't get married, it's their choice.
I've heard the, "If we start letting gays get married it's just one more step to letting people marry their pets." I don't even want to go into how offensive that one is, just implying that gay people are animals.
There are many others, which I can't think of right now, and I would encourage you to voice them!
Just a last note (to my essay, I guess, wow) I just want to say, there are a lot of people that you're not going to agree with. I have friends that are against gay marriage, or a lot of things that I believe, and that doesn't mean I can't be friends with them, or that you shouldn't be friends with them. First off, hearing different points of views is extremely good for a person, challenging your own beliefs will either make them stronger, or realize, hey, I shouldn't just blindly believe in something without thinking about it. It's makes your opinions and arguments stronger. People in this culture have so forgotten how to argue agreeably. We think, if I don't agree with this person I have to blow them up.
Our country was founded on an idea that I don't have to agree with my neighbor! We can both live our own lives with our own beliefs, share our own, but should not infringe on theirs. Because their beliefs are just as valid as yours. We both have the right to practice our beliefs as long as they don't infringe on other's personal freedoms. That's what is so amazing about this country. And I wish we could really get back to that.