they actually referred to him by his full name in the game?
Nope! They don't give you Cecille's either. I just supplement so I can find it when I need it. It's more "I can never remember everyone's goddamn titles".
Oh yaah. I tried to read the Asch thing while I was in Haiti and I couldn't >\ I'll have to get it tomorrow |D
Hm... I'm pretty sure it says "use the first fonon... second fonon" etc with Tear's hymns, but I'll double check when I pick up tomorrow.
his supports the theory that Jade was in fact on Hod during the experiments that took place getting clone data.
This is one of those things I look forward to getting to in the game. I kinda... didn't REGISTER a lot of details, particularly about Jade and Van's pasts and I know there lots of potential fic idea there, or at least great things to think about regarding the character.
you'll actually learn about this later from Asch. Asch wanted it done so he could 'control' and communicate with Luke
Oooh yah, i remember that.
Hm, the stuff about what the director said about Asch is interesting. I do remember reading some of it, but I'll have to go revisit that review cause that part didn't stick. And yah, even Natalia, early on, casually treats Guy as more of a servant than a friend, which gradually changes. For all that Asch probably believed in doing things for the people, I bet he probably still had a good sense of his 'place' as a nobleman. Meanwhile, despite being spoiled as fuck, Luke really only remembers he's royalty when it's convenient.
Yah, I don't think Duke Fabre is a bad person either. I remember thinking he must be horribly cold and everything what with Luke and Guy's pasts, but really. Okay, he doesn't get a father of the year award, but his failures don't make him unforgivable. Which is something I like about ToA, really. Even the people who aren't great doesn't mean they are horrible.
I kinda... didn't REGISTER a lot of details, particularly about Jade and Van's pasts and I know there lots of potential fic idea there, or at least great things to think about regarding the character.
YES. That's why I say I enjoyed the replay more than the initial. Going in, knowing what I do now, so many things are likewhoa, and now it's easier to make connections.
... and that's why I love Van so much. XD;;;;
But yes.
For all that Asch probably believed in doing things for the people, I bet he probably still had a good sense of his 'place' as a nobleman.
Yes. And at the same time, I think Asch as a child was pretty self-sufficient (especially compared to Luke), which probably didn't help gain Guy's sympathy much. (Guy seriously has a 'needy' complex. =() So Guy was simply a servant. I'm sure Asch probably wanted Guy as his friend, but Duty > Self. (I get this impression of him even during game time.)
Which is something I like about ToA, really. Even the people who aren't great doesn't mean they are horrible.
YES. =( This game has some seriously awesome "human" characterization.
Like Guy. He's not a terribly wonderful person either though. XD He's got a good heart, but he's got a dark side to himself that he's quite aware of and actively encourages during earlier parts of his life. He's human, not some perfect shining knight, and that's why I liked him so much in my replay. (He was a helluva lot less boring when I understood what was going on in his head. XD)
The way he irrationally hates on Asch still annoys me though, no matter the justification... I guess I can't understand transferring the blame onto someone else when they had nothing to do with it but in the most cursory (AND FRIVOLOUS) of connections...
(Cause honestly, his rationale of why he hates Asch and why he doesn't hate Luke ANNOYS me. If he goes by that reasoning, Asch supposedly forsook himself and became "Asch" so... uh. He's not "Luke fon Fabre" any more so ... the fuck? You know?
... someone actually used that reasoning for why Rokujinshou!Guy is loyal to Asch and not Luke in a doujinshi... makes me happy that I'm not the only one that sees it that way.)
/butting in to sayharajukufuuriJanuary 22 2007, 12:27:38 UTC
I love both of you. ♥ Long time. ♥ ♥ ♥
Have there been scans of the Famitsu Perfect Guide on the community yet? I have it, and according to maiki, it's pretty informative re: events of the game, especially the Extras section. The parts I can read are usually the more trivial bits, like the command structure of the Oracle Knights (Asch has 50 men, Arietta 20, and Sync around 20, too, IIRC) and the number of years in the calendar.
...It has an article on Contamination. I'd scan the more interesting sections in, but I'm afraid of the fans on the comm. (Particularly a very rabid Luke fangirl.)
Anyway, this long detour from the original topic of ILU was just to say, from the beginning of the game, Asch was acting against Van. This is reflected in the timeline section of the guide (what I can make out, anyway), and the reason stated? Ostensibly (IIRC) because he found out about the replica-plan. Implying that the Choral Castle "mission" was carried out only because each God General had different motives for it. Asch and Dist, obvious; I think Sync wanted to meet his fellow replica.
Re: /butting in to sayruakiJanuary 23 2007, 02:38:28 UTC
No, I don't think there has been scans of that on the comm yet. I know Shinryu posts some bits of info about it on the Tales of forums, but no one's gotten anything seriously comprehensive.
The comm... I'm pretty sure I stay on it just cause there are a number of good, worthwhile posts, but at the same time, there's so many random, off the wall, and completely unacceptable posts. Like people posting about their dreams. WTF. No. That's LJ post, not comm post. =(
I know a few people that stick to posting interesting stuff on more of the offshoot comms (like belovedkuzu) cause they're afraid of what the fans might do on the main comm.
Personally, it irks me to see goddamn Japanese fanart in icons. =(
Even better is the girl on the guxluke comm who fucking reposted Japanese fanart, and even after I asked her that, if she won't take down the work, at least link to the goddamn webpage WHICH I HELPFULLY PROVIDED HER WITH and she didn't do that even though she AGREED WITH ME. GODS FUCK SD:LFK JSD:LFK !!1111
... tangent. XD;
I think Sync also went along because he was told to watch over Asch too. But I totally didn't think of it as him wanting to meet Ion. =( I don't think about Sync much, can you tell? Even though I love his design...
YES. That's why I say I enjoyed the replay more than the initial.
Yah! I wouldn't say I enjoy it MORE, exactly. Since I had people to fan with along the way the first play was really great. And no one spoiled me =D So even though certain things were traumatic, it was new and relatively unexpected and I enjoyed it a lot.
But normally I don't replay games at all. I sometimes START to, but I'll usually find a halfassed way to go about it, or stop partway through. This is the first time I can remember being all "MUST PLAY AGAIN SO I CATCH EVERYTHING >\" and I'm having a lot of fun with it.
And ironically... I thought whiny bitch Luke would be hard to deal with after knowing how he turns out, but it's not at all. It's actually really cute to see all the ways his 'true' feelings shine through. You don't see it as much the first time around, since the whiny-ness is more apparent, but when you can see the constract between how he starts and where he ends up, it's easy to pick up on stuff I didn't notice before, like how Luke is kinder to Ion than anyone, or how he treats Guy more like a friend than anyone else, or how he's genuinely nice about certain stuff...
O luke...
But yah I'm having a lot of fun on replay >D
However looking at the TIME I'm like. God fuck this game is long. I'M ONLY TWELVE HOURS IN. My final game was EXACTLY 120 hours. Crazy.
ALSO I READ THE GAIDEN. God. Asch. S-So squishy D= And no wonder he hated Luke, Van didn't do anything to discourage that. Actually Van encouraged him to hate everyone, I think, but Asch probably couldn't bring himself to believe it was their fault, easy enough to blame the stupid replica >\
The way he irrationally hates on Asch still annoys me though, no matter the justification...
Well, Asch does the same thing too, really. He blames Luke for everything even more than he blames Van. You'll notice he never wants to get revenge on Van for DESTROYING HIS LIFE, no, that's all Luke. He wants to stop Van from destroying the world.
And as for it being irrational well... I think a lot of it is you have to consider their time. Familial ties are a reoccuring theme. Tear feels responsible to stop Van, Cecille feels obligated to make up for the honor of her family. Natalia was almost not recognized as a princess when it turned out she wasn't of royal blood. It used to be very common for the sins of the father to pass onto the son, not because that's LOGICAL but because that's how society views these things.
Guy is CLEVER, sure, but you can't typically expect someone to easily go completely against something that is taken as a given in society. It's not so different from the Score. For example, in today's society if a 'Score' appeared, a LOT of people would question the ethics of it, constantly. They would question if they wanted their fate to be determined, if that meant that if the Score predicted the fall of a society, would they help it or fight it? But in Auldrant the score is such a common place almost no one thinks to question it. It just is.
So, for all that Guy (and Asch's) hatred are irrational by our standards, I doubt it's particularly uncommon to hold the mistakes of the father to the sons. Asch might not be Duke Fabre, but he's still the son of the man that murdered his father, his sister, his servants... that's a lot of hatred. I doubt anyone, not even reasonable Pere, ever told Guy not to hate Luke just for being Duke Fabre's son. Hell, he might very well have encouraged it.
Hahahaha. I'm not saying that Guy's hatred is necessarily unjustified (as I said above)--the way he is reacting is very typical of medival times, where Clan A would hate on Clan B for some slight done by someone's great great great grandfather 3 million years ago and damned if anyone remembers why. It's also just like the original sin concept in Catholicism and some other Christian religions--according to that, we've all inherited the sins of the father--something Adam did some fuck-odd thousand years ago, and that's why we're all being punished so you better baptize and find Jesus or you're fucked.
I'm just saying it annoys me because I personally cannot concept why you'd shift your blame from one person to someone else, especially if the original person is still goddamn available for you to spew your righteous rage on. It's like hating an entire nation or race just for something a few fuckwads did to you.
I guess I just don't believe in things like 'the grandfather clause' where you inherit the responsibility for THEIR actions just because you're somehow related to them. So it annoys me that Guy thinks this way. AND THAT SOMEHOW LUKE IS EXEMPT BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH LUKE THINKS OF HIMSELF AS A FON FABRE JUST BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY DOESN'T HAVE BLOOD????? HE IS NOT AND THEREFORE NO EVIL SHOULD BE DONE ONTO HIM. =(
So it annoys me, and I'm pretty sure that's why I slash him with Asch cause I know it annoys him. XDDDDDDDD
Nope! They don't give you Cecille's either. I just supplement so I can find it when I need it. It's more "I can never remember everyone's goddamn titles".
Oh yaah. I tried to read the Asch thing while I was in Haiti and I couldn't >\ I'll have to get it tomorrow |D
Hm... I'm pretty sure it says "use the first fonon... second fonon" etc with Tear's hymns, but I'll double check when I pick up tomorrow.
his supports the theory that Jade was in fact on Hod during the experiments that took place getting clone data.
This is one of those things I look forward to getting to in the game. I kinda... didn't REGISTER a lot of details, particularly about Jade and Van's pasts and I know there lots of potential fic idea there, or at least great things to think about regarding the character.
you'll actually learn about this later from Asch. Asch wanted it done so he could 'control' and communicate with Luke
Oooh yah, i remember that.
Hm, the stuff about what the director said about Asch is interesting. I do remember reading some of it, but I'll have to go revisit that review cause that part didn't stick. And yah, even Natalia, early on, casually treats Guy as more of a servant than a friend, which gradually changes. For all that Asch probably believed in doing things for the people, I bet he probably still had a good sense of his 'place' as a nobleman. Meanwhile, despite being spoiled as fuck, Luke really only remembers he's royalty when it's convenient.
Yah, I don't think Duke Fabre is a bad person either. I remember thinking he must be horribly cold and everything what with Luke and Guy's pasts, but really. Okay, he doesn't get a father of the year award, but his failures don't make him unforgivable. Which is something I like about ToA, really. Even the people who aren't great doesn't mean they are horrible.
Reply
YES. That's why I say I enjoyed the replay more than the initial. Going in, knowing what I do now, so many things are likewhoa, and now it's easier to make connections.
... and that's why I love Van so much. XD;;;;
But yes.
For all that Asch probably believed in doing things for the people, I bet he probably still had a good sense of his 'place' as a nobleman.
Yes. And at the same time, I think Asch as a child was pretty self-sufficient (especially compared to Luke), which probably didn't help gain Guy's sympathy much. (Guy seriously has a 'needy' complex. =() So Guy was simply a servant. I'm sure Asch probably wanted Guy as his friend, but Duty > Self. (I get this impression of him even during game time.)
Which is something I like about ToA, really. Even the people who aren't great doesn't mean they are horrible.
YES. =( This game has some seriously awesome "human" characterization.
Like Guy. He's not a terribly wonderful person either though. XD He's got a good heart, but he's got a dark side to himself that he's quite aware of and actively encourages during earlier parts of his life. He's human, not some perfect shining knight, and that's why I liked him so much in my replay. (He was a helluva lot less boring when I understood what was going on in his head. XD)
The way he irrationally hates on Asch still annoys me though, no matter the justification... I guess I can't understand transferring the blame onto someone else when they had nothing to do with it but in the most cursory (AND FRIVOLOUS) of connections...
(Cause honestly, his rationale of why he hates Asch and why he doesn't hate Luke ANNOYS me. If he goes by that reasoning, Asch supposedly forsook himself and became "Asch" so... uh. He's not "Luke fon Fabre" any more so ... the fuck? You know?
... someone actually used that reasoning for why Rokujinshou!Guy is loyal to Asch and not Luke in a doujinshi... makes me happy that I'm not the only one that sees it that way.)
Reply
Have there been scans of the Famitsu Perfect Guide on the community yet? I have it, and according to maiki, it's pretty informative re: events of the game, especially the Extras section. The parts I can read are usually the more trivial bits, like the command structure of the Oracle Knights (Asch has 50 men, Arietta 20, and Sync around 20, too, IIRC) and the number of years in the calendar.
...It has an article on Contamination. I'd scan the more interesting sections in, but I'm afraid of the fans on the comm. (Particularly a very rabid Luke fangirl.)
Anyway, this long detour from the original topic of ILU was just to say, from the beginning of the game, Asch was acting against Van. This is reflected in the timeline section of the guide (what I can make out, anyway), and the reason stated? Ostensibly (IIRC) because he found out about the replica-plan. Implying that the Choral Castle "mission" was carried out only because each God General had different motives for it. Asch and Dist, obvious; I think Sync wanted to meet his fellow replica.
Reply
Fifty men for Asch huh >D I wonder if he killed any of them on Eldrant? Or if they killed him? Hmm~
Reply
The comm... I'm pretty sure I stay on it just cause there are a number of good, worthwhile posts, but at the same time, there's so many random, off the wall, and completely unacceptable posts. Like people posting about their dreams. WTF. No. That's LJ post, not comm post. =(
I know a few people that stick to posting interesting stuff on more of the offshoot comms (like belovedkuzu) cause they're afraid of what the fans might do on the main comm.
Personally, it irks me to see goddamn Japanese fanart in icons. =(
Even better is the girl on the guxluke comm who fucking reposted Japanese fanart, and even after I asked her that, if she won't take down the work, at least link to the goddamn webpage WHICH I HELPFULLY PROVIDED HER WITH and she didn't do that even though she AGREED WITH ME. GODS FUCK SD:LFK JSD:LFK !!1111
... tangent. XD;
I think Sync also went along because he was told to watch over Asch too. But I totally didn't think of it as him wanting to meet Ion. =( I don't think about Sync much, can you tell? Even though I love his design...
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Yah! I wouldn't say I enjoy it MORE, exactly. Since I had people to fan with along the way the first play was really great. And no one spoiled me =D So even though certain things were traumatic, it was new and relatively unexpected and I enjoyed it a lot.
But normally I don't replay games at all. I sometimes START to, but I'll usually find a halfassed way to go about it, or stop partway through. This is the first time I can remember being all "MUST PLAY AGAIN SO I CATCH EVERYTHING >\" and I'm having a lot of fun with it.
And ironically... I thought whiny bitch Luke would be hard to deal with after knowing how he turns out, but it's not at all. It's actually really cute to see all the ways his 'true' feelings shine through. You don't see it as much the first time around, since the whiny-ness is more apparent, but when you can see the constract between how he starts and where he ends up, it's easy to pick up on stuff I didn't notice before, like how Luke is kinder to Ion than anyone, or how he treats Guy more like a friend than anyone else, or how he's genuinely nice about certain stuff...
O luke...
But yah I'm having a lot of fun on replay >D
However looking at the TIME I'm like. God fuck this game is long. I'M ONLY TWELVE HOURS IN. My final game was EXACTLY 120 hours. Crazy.
ALSO I READ THE GAIDEN. God. Asch. S-So squishy D= And no wonder he hated Luke, Van didn't do anything to discourage that. Actually Van encouraged him to hate everyone, I think, but Asch probably couldn't bring himself to believe it was their fault, easy enough to blame the stupid replica >\
The way he irrationally hates on Asch still annoys me though, no matter the justification...
Well, Asch does the same thing too, really. He blames Luke for everything even more than he blames Van. You'll notice he never wants to get revenge on Van for DESTROYING HIS LIFE, no, that's all Luke. He wants to stop Van from destroying the world.
And as for it being irrational well... I think a lot of it is you have to consider their time. Familial ties are a reoccuring theme. Tear feels responsible to stop Van, Cecille feels obligated to make up for the honor of her family. Natalia was almost not recognized as a princess when it turned out she wasn't of royal blood. It used to be very common for the sins of the father to pass onto the son, not because that's LOGICAL but because that's how society views these things.
Guy is CLEVER, sure, but you can't typically expect someone to easily go completely against something that is taken as a given in society. It's not so different from the Score. For example, in today's society if a 'Score' appeared, a LOT of people would question the ethics of it, constantly. They would question if they wanted their fate to be determined, if that meant that if the Score predicted the fall of a society, would they help it or fight it? But in Auldrant the score is such a common place almost no one thinks to question it. It just is.
So, for all that Guy (and Asch's) hatred are irrational by our standards, I doubt it's particularly uncommon to hold the mistakes of the father to the sons. Asch might not be Duke Fabre, but he's still the son of the man that murdered his father, his sister, his servants... that's a lot of hatred. I doubt anyone, not even reasonable Pere, ever told Guy not to hate Luke just for being Duke Fabre's son. Hell, he might very well have encouraged it.
THAT WAS LONG
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I'm just saying it annoys me because I personally cannot concept why you'd shift your blame from one person to someone else, especially if the original person is still goddamn available for you to spew your righteous rage on. It's like hating an entire nation or race just for something a few fuckwads did to you.
I guess I just don't believe in things like 'the grandfather clause' where you inherit the responsibility for THEIR actions just because you're somehow related to them. So it annoys me that Guy thinks this way. AND THAT SOMEHOW LUKE IS EXEMPT BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH LUKE THINKS OF HIMSELF AS A FON FABRE JUST BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY DOESN'T HAVE BLOOD????? HE IS NOT AND THEREFORE NO EVIL SHOULD BE DONE ONTO HIM. =(
So it annoys me, and I'm pretty sure that's why I slash him with Asch cause I know it annoys him. XDDDDDDDD
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