AMUSING

[avball]

It's been a while since I've read anything about the 'gun control debate,' but I was reading slashdot for the first time in a while and came across some nonsense about securing individual rounds of ammunition with an encryption key in an effort to make the world safer for the children or some such drivel. I was highly amused by this

Comments

[2eclipse]

i have no problem with guns per se. i don't like handguns because they are primarily used against people. i am a pacifist. i do not believe in violence even for self-defence or defence of the helpless.
on the other hand, i have no problem with killing animals as long as you eat them.

[armitige3]

So if I kill in self-defense, and then eat the perp, does that make it better? ~_^ Just kidding. I couldn't resist.

However, I do have to point out that killing an animal is still violence. What makes it any different than visiting violence upon a person?

[2eclipse]

i am not against all violence period. the argument can be made against verbal violence....and on, and on. and i am not against violence on principal. i am a christian...for me pacifism comes from that whole "thou shalt not kill" thing, as well as that other thing about turning the other cheek. i also think that killing people is a cop-out. doing things the easy way instead of the hard way of talking things out, and living in the other guy's shoes long enough to understand him - and help him understand us.
if an animal species were found to be sentient, i would also stop eating them.

[avball]

What's your opinion on Romans 13:4 (For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.)? Our chaplain in boot camp used that as an example of why a Christian can be a Marine.

uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[2eclipse]

my interpretation of this is that it is speaking of someone who is not me. there are far more instances where the bible speaks against violence than for it. jesus himself never spoke for it, though he did act violently in the temple in his father's name (i interpret the "i bring not peace but a sword" speach to be about the violent times to come, not personally about him weilding a sword). i don't think pacifism is for everyone. but i'm real sure that i'm not brave enough to risk pissing off God when he's told me not to kill people and i don't think it is a good idea for anyone else either. i think a risk for one's soul is much worse than a risk to one's body. i would rather be raped and murdered than for someone to kill someone for my sake.

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[avball]

Well, I'm not trying to change your mind or anythign and respect your beliefs, was just wondering what your thoughts were on that one. The way Chaps put it was that said verse specifically refered to us as the executors of the government (which the previous verses imply is in power by the will of God) and that we bear the sword to carry out His will.

A possible example of Jesus and violence was the driving out of the money lenders, but I forget where exactly that one is... I think maybe in Luke it talks about him using whips on them or something? That incident is mentioned in a few of the gospels, but I think only one of them mentions the whips.

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[2eclipse]

the cite you reference is exactly the one i mentioned - jesus in the temple, with the moneylenders and the whip =all the same incident.

i didn't take anything you said in a negative frame. i had a chaplain try to convince me to enlist once...but i can't do it for moral reasons. the problem with the idea that the military is the executor of God's will through the govt. is that it gives free liscence to the government and turns any conflict they get involved with a matter of God's will. i don't buy it. especially not with our current govt.
but any true pacifist must, by definition be an anarchist as well. you cannot support any government as a pacifist, because a government that refuses to defend itself is not a government very long.....i hate that aspect of reality, but it is true.

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[avball]

Ahh, okay. Didn't realise it was the same incident. Anyway, the whole point of my post wasn't really to try and push people to bear arms in self defense. Mostly I was amused at the comparison between automobiles and firearms, and that it was found on slashdot.

Am I correct in believing that you have no inclination to prevent others from resorting to violence in order to prevent further violence, just that you would not do it yourself due to religious beliefs?

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[2eclipse]

i didn't think you were trying to be pushy at all. i was just trying to explain why my views are so radical - i do acknowledge that i am the oddball here, not you

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[avball]

i would rather be raped and murdered than for someone to kill someone for my sake.

Well, I'm not sure I could handle you being raped and murdered, but in the highly unlikely event that we are in that position (i.e. you about to be victimised and me in a position to prevent it by lethal force), I will do my best to respect your wishes and put a stop to it without killing your assailant. If it came down to a one or the other with absolutely no other choices though, I would act. My beliefs prevent inaction in such a case. I sincerely hope such a thing never happens, but if it did, I do believe God would forgive me.

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[2eclipse]

that was an extreme example to show the extremity of my views. i'm not in favor of being raped or murdered and i would certainly act in my own defense (by running away and trying to talk my way out of the situation). i appreciate your moderation. i don't claim to know what God would do, but i am sure He would appreciate your intent as well as your actions.

bonhoeffer continues to be a challenge to me. he was a pacifist, and yet he attempted to assassinate hitler(and failed and was executed). i think what it comes down to is that God's will for us outweighs everything, including doing right by God. for instence, what would have happened if judas hadn't betrayed jesus? are his actions justifiable because without them jesus never could have sacrificed himself for us? honestly i don't know.
what i do know is that God made us for loving community with Him and with one another. i can't take part in violence or condone it and feel myself in harmony with that community.

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[2eclipse]

btw. you are every bit as intelligent and thoughtful as i remember, not to mention respectful. i miss talking to you.

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[avball]

Thanks, and same back at ya :) Where did you go off to again? Wasn't it somewhere far away and north that started with M? Minesota or Montana or somethin? Really must visit sometime... hopefully when we drive out to WA.

Re: uh....i really don't mean to sound this preachy, but i'm not sure how else to say it.

[2eclipse]

minnesota.
and you would be welcome. it is nice up here.