I see your point on season 3. My POV is that it's season 2 in reverse -- Dean has a bloody destiny he's been marked for and Sam is determined to save him from it instead of Sam being marked for a bloody destiny and Dean determined to save him from it.
So it's definitely a parallel to earlier seasons!
And wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if somehow Sam SUCCEEDED this time?
And wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if somehow Sam SUCCEEDED this time?
hehe! Miracle more like! (though, I've been thinking he may well succeed - but at what cost?). But not sure how that plays into the Cain and Abel story. hmmmmm - though we're guaranteed major angst no matter what happens… ;)
That, I am on board with. If only - just to watch him handle success, small smile and nod, not talking about it? Confusion as the way he'd come to experience the world shifts? And how would Dean react (or how would Dean as we know him react)?
I'll have to watch the episode again, because my first go-round was a little 'meh', but that doesn't mean anything necessarily! I loved the gore/serious monster biz aspect. Unlike some, I don't dislike Cole, though he wasn't terribly well-written this spin ... well, actually, I think this writer just isn't smashing with dialog, but hey, so be it.
I believe Carver's current team doesn't have a great overview of the characters and past events (even though some of the writers have been around awhile), so the dialog will feel like it's been done before ... because it has
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I was engaged and wasn't left head scratching as much as I usually am - so I counted that as a win! (also, old fashioned MoTW and no angels and demons - double win :D). I was bored a bit during the Cole and Dean stuff - mostly because I don't care at all about Cole. I know it was being used to show us the fight Dean has ahead so it was important (though I'm not sure how much more they need to hammer home that Dean will need to fight this from within, but there you have it
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Oh yeah, I know his was a redemption arc for Gadreel and he made "good" after using Sam's body to kill Kevin. For me though, it seems weird to go from that to considering him a friend (as Sam stated). Warily trusting, yes, but "friend" is a hard stretch for me. Though I know Sam is massively forgiving because of what he's been through and I accept that in Gadreel's case and in Cole's case he can easily find forgiveness because he, himself, has needed forgiveness in the past (even when the perpetrators don't - like Cole, in this case).
It's a strength of Sam's (I just a little peeved when that is overlooked. But yeah, I gotta move past in…)
The fact that we are seeing an identical story line to S3 (Dean in mortal peril and Sam feeling helpless to save him) makes me feel a little weary of it all.
That isn't what's happening though? Dean is not in mortal danger. Dean is in no danger. If Dean dies he will wake up two hours later, though this isn't much of an issue because he's significantly more powerful than a fully human hunter. Sam is the one who is placed in grave danger by Dean's grim, manly resignation to his fratricidal steroid implant.
I mean, I'm not saying you have to like it as much as I do and shouldn't be underwhelmed, obviously. I'm saying I'm enjoying it because it's a solid point about the characters' enmeshment that the show hasn't really emphasized before: that usually the "your problems are my problems, BRO" is set up to be an emotional commitment. But in this case, Dean's problems really are Sam's problems, even - especially! - if Dean refuses to acknowledge or deal with those problems.
Dean is not in mortal danger. Dean is in no danger.
Ah, I have to say that hasn't been my reading. I see him heading down an extremely destructive path - possibly trying to kill Sam and then as many people has he wants. If he is to become Cain I would say his life is very much in danger - the Dean as we know him, of course. He may still live, but it's not a life Sam (or Dean) would want. Powerful yes, but no longer "Dean". Other alternative is Dean having to die (someway) in order to save him. There's no happy ending for Dean on his current trajectory.
Sam is the one who is placed in grave danger by Dean's grim, manly resignation to his fratricidal steroid implant.Oh yes! But Sam doesn't know that. And how curious that Dean DOES know that and yet he's not coming across as too concerned (now) of getting rid of it. I am assuming Dean believes he is strong enough to fight it and therefore doesn't believe Sam is in danger (I do like this part of the characterisation - very much in keeping with the Dean we saw last season. Not
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If he is to become Cain I would say his life is very much in danger - the Dean as we know him, of course. He may still live, but it's not a life Sam (or Dean) would want. Powerful yes, but no longer "Dean"
Existential peril, okay, but that isn't mortal danger, and I don't think Dean's existential peril should be prioritized over Sam being actually in mortal danger.
I'm not saying there's no echoes of earlier seasons? I'm saying there are also some pretty critical differences.
certainly Sam isn't thinking he's in any immediate danger from Dean (though he should be. And maybe he is aware - as he was looking at a picture of Cain killing Abel as the episode opened)I don't know that Sam doesn't understand that Dean is a danger to him, though? Like, he didn't just look at pictures of Cain killing Abel, he also jumped out of his skin when Dean snuck up behind him while he was doing it. That does look to me like Sam knows enough to be worried about himself. The fact that he's not just saying "whatever, Dean, you can't tell me not to
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I want to think Sam knows he's in danger, but I'm just not sure with this current batch of writers. They've dumbed down the characters to such a frustrating degree, it wouldn't surprise me one iota if they make Sam ignorant of this fact. Sam's jumping out of his skin just isn't proof enough for me. (Jared may well be playing it as though Sam knows, but like I said, these writers ...)
We shall see, though! I'm loving the Cain and Abel spin. Hope they make it good and juicy for us. :)
I can only speak for myself, but for me it's definitely the constant drama between the brothers that makes the show so compelling to watch!
I liked the ep (I'm always very positive about the show, there's hardly one I don't like at all), but thought it was one of the weaker ones this season. I guess I simply prefer the mytharc episodes.
Hee - I think I might be opposite…:)) I'm a huge fan of the MoTW eps. I've loved the myth arc eps in the past but since S8 they've just been hard for me to enjoy. Just too much brother nastiness and I find that really hard to watch. Though, we've seen much for togetherness recently, so that's been nice.
my grade for this ep is B for boring it didnt work for me. i dont like Cole, the disrespect of them not bringing up Sam being tortured, kidnapped, and beaten by Cole is confusing to me and to have Sam even working with Cole after all of that he did to him :(. im waiting to see that quest to save Dean
Yeah, the lack of closure on Cole torturing Sam is problematic. But, and I'm not trying to be contentious here, what Sam experiences during the story isn't the important part. It's only there to serve the plot - so, in the case of Sam's torture that was merely about showing us how different Dean was by not responding to it. It wasn't meant as any thing that would concern or worry Sam. It's past (pretty much like anything that has happened to Sam in the last 3-8 years) and so it's not worthy of mentioning again.
Cole exists now to show Dean the fight he's going to have on his hand when dealing with the mark. Kit dying was to show how Sam is feeling about potentially not being able to save Dean. It's easier (for me now) to pretty much accept that stuff that happens to Sam is only there for plot, so expecting human reactions from it is like wishing that Sam will succeed in saving Dean. I hope for it, but am trying to stop getting angsty about it. It's just not worth it any more
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So it's definitely a parallel to earlier seasons!
And wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if somehow Sam SUCCEEDED this time?
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hehe! Miracle more like! (though, I've been thinking he may well succeed - but at what cost?). But not sure how that plays into the Cain and Abel story. hmmmmm - though we're guaranteed major angst no matter what happens… ;)
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I believe Carver's current team doesn't have a great overview of the characters and past events (even though some of the writers have been around awhile), so the dialog will feel like it's been done before ... because it has ( ... )
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It's different with Gadreel. He was willing to risk his life to help make things right. And in the end, he sacrificed himself for them.
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It's a strength of Sam's (I just a little peeved when that is overlooked. But yeah, I gotta move past in…)
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That isn't what's happening though? Dean is not in mortal danger. Dean is in no danger. If Dean dies he will wake up two hours later, though this isn't much of an issue because he's significantly more powerful than a fully human hunter. Sam is the one who is placed in grave danger by Dean's grim, manly resignation to his fratricidal steroid implant.
I mean, I'm not saying you have to like it as much as I do and shouldn't be underwhelmed, obviously. I'm saying I'm enjoying it because it's a solid point about the characters' enmeshment that the show hasn't really emphasized before: that usually the "your problems are my problems, BRO" is set up to be an emotional commitment. But in this case, Dean's problems really are Sam's problems, even - especially! - if Dean refuses to acknowledge or deal with those problems.
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Ah, I have to say that hasn't been my reading. I see him heading down an extremely destructive path - possibly trying to kill Sam and then as many people has he wants. If he is to become Cain I would say his life is very much in danger - the Dean as we know him, of course. He may still live, but it's not a life Sam (or Dean) would want. Powerful yes, but no longer "Dean". Other alternative is Dean having to die (someway) in order to save him. There's no happy ending for Dean on his current trajectory.
Sam is the one who is placed in grave danger by Dean's grim, manly resignation to his fratricidal steroid implant.Oh yes! But Sam doesn't know that. And how curious that Dean DOES know that and yet he's not coming across as too concerned (now) of getting rid of it. I am assuming Dean believes he is strong enough to fight it and therefore doesn't believe Sam is in danger (I do like this part of the characterisation - very much in keeping with the Dean we saw last season. Not ( ... )
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Existential peril, okay, but that isn't mortal danger, and I don't think Dean's existential peril should be prioritized over Sam being actually in mortal danger.
I'm not saying there's no echoes of earlier seasons? I'm saying there are also some pretty critical differences.
certainly Sam isn't thinking he's in any immediate danger from Dean (though he should be. And maybe he is aware - as he was looking at a picture of Cain killing Abel as the episode opened)I don't know that Sam doesn't understand that Dean is a danger to him, though? Like, he didn't just look at pictures of Cain killing Abel, he also jumped out of his skin when Dean snuck up behind him while he was doing it. That does look to me like Sam knows enough to be worried about himself. The fact that he's not just saying "whatever, Dean, you can't tell me not to ( ... )
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We shall see, though! I'm loving the Cain and Abel spin. Hope they make it good and juicy for us. :)
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I liked the ep (I'm always very positive about the show, there's hardly one I don't like at all), but thought it was one of the weaker ones this season. I guess I simply prefer the mytharc episodes.
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Cole exists now to show Dean the fight he's going to have on his hand when dealing with the mark. Kit dying was to show how Sam is feeling about potentially not being able to save Dean. It's easier (for me now) to pretty much accept that stuff that happens to Sam is only there for plot, so expecting human reactions from it is like wishing that Sam will succeed in saving Dean. I hope for it, but am trying to stop getting angsty about it. It's just not worth it any more ( ... )
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