9.17 ep reaction/review

[ash48]

This is a little later than usual. I watched the episode and then had to go out (argh...on a show night!). I had lots of thoughts about it and I wanted to make some gifs and use some caps, so I waited until I could gather that altogether.

Comments

[amberdreams]

That picture on the wall of the town, I'm pretty certain that is the place where Metatron and Cas met up for the first time - whether that is supposed to be significant or whether it just happened to be a town they use so had a picture of it or not I have no idea

[ash48]

I'm pretty certain that is the place where Metatron and Cas met up for the first time

Oooh, I'll have to check that. I thought it was the town they were in, but it would be cool if it was somewhere else.

Re the soulless catch by Sam. I actually get how Sam might be different to the others (he and Dean are very different to the "norm" and Sam would have much more control over himself than others might) - what I had trouble with was Sam actually seeing that from his past experience. I mean, it's probably a handwave kind of moment (they needed to bring souls into the storyline and this was a good way to do it), it was just very weird that Sam picked that from his experience.

Previous canon seemed to imply a soul was like a conscience - rip it out and what would stop someone giving in to anger when provoked? Oh yes. I get that too. I can see how these people were acting without souls (one banging his head bloody on the bars) and I actually really like that idea. It was simply about Sam picking that up - maybe he could sense it?

[amberdreams]

Ah gotcha. Mmm I suppose it was a bit of a leap - unless we are thinking that once soulless you are likely to recognise the same condition in others through some sort of fellow feeling?? I just put that down to Sam being bloody sharp as a box of knives.

[ash48]

ha! I'll take it as Sam being bloody sharp! :)) I'll just have to hand wave that one. Show often has them discovering what's happened without a heap of info. The show doesn't have time for them to spend toooooolong researching it.
xx

[de_nugis]

I'm ever more behind on canon, but there has been some interesting back and forth about the soullessness thing here:

http://why-this-kolaveri-machi.tumblr.com/post/80871212173/its-a-noble-calling-isnt-it

and here (I'm the anon -- I can see the day coming when I will cave and get a Tumblr)

http://why-this-kolaveri-machi.tumblr.com/post/80875628474/and-for-sam-being-split-at-a-fundamental-level-is-not

I've also seen it suggested that because of what he saw as the set patterns of What One Does, soulless!Sam channeled his aggression into hunting. And Sam has always had a tendency to interpret his anger into more abstract goals, revenge quests, for instance. I think that kind of functionality/structuring of the self did very much survive in soulless!Sam.

[ash48]

Thanks for the links. I'll check them about. :)

For me it wasn't that Sam was different to those in this episode (I appreciate that Sam would be different to any normal person), it was that Sam figured out that they were soulless based on his past experience - which was different. But I can hand wave and accept that Sam could see something in them that he saw in himself when he was soulless. It just seemed like a stretch to me...

[counteragent]

A HUGE stretch. LOLplot in this episode. Also, Sam dealing with a town of soulless people should have had more emotional resonance than a "huh" or two. Heh.

[quickreaver]

Yeah, I thought it was a bit of a leap too, but we didn't see ALL of what Soulless!Sam did in that year. His first few spins around the block might've been gratuitous id before he got bored or annoyed, and leveled out into hunting. Bah, who knows.

[suebsg9]

Sam has his tattoo when cas healed him when he was taking out the last of gadreel he put sam's tattoo on so no one will be able to get inside sam. I think the last part of the season is going to be about dean and the blade. And hopefully the boys reconciling. Dean may see a suicide mission killing abaddon and maybe then he will tell sam what he wants to hear. I have watched both phone conversations and the first one that sam had with dean was telling with how quick and abrupt dean was and you look at sam's expression been a long time since we seen that look. And then the second one at the bar was telling when sam wanted dean there with him to hunt but I think with the way crowley said how dean and cain got along they were both killers scares dean. and who could blame him i mean he kills things that need to die and its going to be intresting the next time he picks up the blade and misha did a great job directing. bravo.

[ash48]

Yeah, I heard that the tattoo is actually still there (even though we haven't had physical confirmation). I'd be surprised if he's possessed again (unless it's by gadreel somehow. May once saying "yes" is always yes...). But yeah, I think there's something else afoot. Something I actually hope none of us imagine, but is awesome anyway!

And yes to everything else. Sam is scared for Dean and he sure does want him by his side. Even when he was pissed with him he knew they made a great team (even soulless!Sam knew that).

Can't wait to see how this plays out.

[de_nugis]

Castiel had to get a second Yes out of Jimmy, and the Tahmoh Gadreel vessel (I wish they'd just give us his name) said Yes again before Gadreel repossessed him, so I think we can be confident that a new Yes is required for an angel to reenter a vessel (though maybe if they get around consent the first time the consent basis is forever flawed . . . ). It's always possible they could create a situation where for some reason Sam felt he had to allow Gadreel back in, maybe to save Dean somehow. I really, really hope that they won't have Sam go the route of any violation of Dean's autonomy to save Dean, because I think that principle is important, but Sam being willing to sacrifice his own could be effective

[ash48]

I really, really hope that they won't have Sam go the route of any violation of Dean's autonomy to save Dean, because I think that principle is important, but Sam being willing to sacrifice his own could be effective.

Out of everything..EVERYTHING..I do not want them to make Sam a hypocrite by going back on his words that he would not resurrect Dean in the same way Dean resurrected Sam. There has GOT to be a lesson in that. Surely. I like the idea that Sam has to do something - but that he refuses to cross that line. Sacrifice himself for sure - that's very Sam, but not cross that very line the first half of the season seemed to be about.

I agree that Dean getting possessed is more likely than it happening to Sam. But to be honest, I think it will have to be very well handled for it not to end up being a bit ho hum. We are so used to these possessions by now. I think it would be more interesting if they did something else with that (though Abaddon inside Dean would be crazy hot...;D)

But I DON'T think that Sam will get more

[jessm78]

One was that Abaddon was somehow going to possess Sam. Just when we got Sam back I was thinking we'd lose him again to possession (where's that tattoo Sam!?!).

Oh gosh, YES. That really made me nervous - I was so relieved that didn't actually happen. Great move of his with the exorcism on speaker phone, even though she crushed it. But I'm so glad he was able to beat her anyway.

I'm thinking that the whole image of them working apart at the end is to reflect not just how crazy their relationship still is, but Dean's state as far as the addiction to the blade and all that. He was just so withdrawn from Sam in this one, so mired in the obsession with the blade. It will be interesting to see how Sam will react as he gets further into it.

[ash48]

*nods*

Curious that we had Sam withdrawn from Dean for a while and now Dean is withdrawn from Sam. These two...just crazy. I think Sam just has to put everything aside for the moment (which will actually bug me monumentally if that remains the case) in order to save Dean. IDK...I'm waiting to see what eventuates. Sam might still be feel the same way he did, but at the moment he has other concerns. It's the story of Sam's life actually. There's just bigger things going on than him. He accepts that and takes it in his stride. It's what makes him such a hero.

[counteragent]

The plot seemed soooo undercooked this episode. None of it made much sense, especially the Abaddon in the past subplot. Leaving the nun alive was truly bizarre, as was leaving Henry alive. Turning souls into demons topside is fine, but it needed to be explained within the basic tenets of canon. Maybe she's taking them on vaycay in hell? Hee.

[ash48]

Leaving the nun alive was well weird (but demons man...so weird. Crowley has left S&D alive for ages. Also - they can snap necks can't they? Why don't they do that? They just talk their victims to death. Sam should have been dead too).

Henry I can buy because she wanted more info about the MoL (for some reason? to help her become the Queen of Hell maybe? Which ended up working because she followed Henry through the portal to the modern world. I think....)

Does my head in (not nearly as much as Teen Wolf does so I'm grateful for that at least).

[counteragent]

But she could have learned about the Men of Letters without Henry, as Josie was to be inducted. Didn't make any sense. Oh well. I don't really care that much about the plot around the nuns and things I guess. It's more the emotional short hands that get to me.