There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. A little too much has been left open to interpretation, if you ask me, and that's definitely the problem. The brothers don't finish conversations or sentences, so it's left up to this divided fandom to interpret what's not been said, what Sam and Dean are thinking? No, thanks. I've gotten to the point where I'll only engage conversation with those who can see the ambiguity of the brothers' situation.
And yes, Show IS treating us like children. We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)
it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been
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"Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door."
Absolutely. I've been saying this for a long while - Sam's anger no longer fuels him and it's as though he's not found a substitute for it since Dean was lost in Purgatory or maybe even before that. Melancholy is a very good word for it.
Dean was lost in Purgatory; now Sam is just . . . lost. Oh, Show . . .
I'm torn. On the one hand, I want Sam to regain his spark, his spirit. To confront Dean and get everything -- UN-ambigously -- out in the open. On the other hand, Dean is sporting Cain's mark, undergoing dark changes, and I'm not all that keen on two brothers having a blowup when one of them may be succumbing to the Cain effect.
Hmm. I see your point. While they'd never allow Dean to actually kill Sam, but yeah. Much like the ending scene in "Sex and Violence," that scenario could make for awesome -- and yes, terrifying! -- drama.
We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)
Yeah, it's been pretty torrid out there. I think that this ep would have be written and probably even made after the one that started all this (ep 12 I think?). It makes me wonder if Carver knew how much trouble he was stirring up.
of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.AND that Dean's been working with Crowley. Sam can probably see Dean doing exactly the same thing that he's been through himself and just knows how badly it can end. I mean, it's already been pretty bad but things can always get worse for the Winchesters
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Yikes, I forgot all about the Sam/Ruby, Dean-Crowley connection. Thank you!
Oh, bb, you have no idea how much I love and respect your level-headedness. Even when you're upset about an episode, you still manage to see more than one side to an issue.
And this is really fucking terrible, especially when the person have the possession forced on him was the one person on the show who has had this same shit done to him since he was 6 months old. It's gross to repeatedly do this kind of thing and then ignore the ramifications of that specific aspect every single time.
I'm not sure that the noncon aspect IS completely absent from the text. I agree it's never going to be talked about openly, but even apart from the fact that we just see it happening onscreen over and over again, there are too many places in the scripts where the language about possession is sexualized for me to think that it's completely off the writers' radar or just a bizarre coincidence. I don't know if it's a deliberate attempt on the part of the writers to both raise and evade the issue, or if they genuinely think it works best left as subtext (I do think, in the end, that the repeated rape references surrounding Dean in season six ended up working without ever being brought into the open -- it's not impossible), or whether there is a kind of collective subconscious thing going on where the writers write in Abaddon's scene with Dean, or "sloppy seconds" or "I've been inside your brother" or the Teen Mom sequence but have no idea what they are doing. But whatever way it works at the Doyle intention level, I think it is part of
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I think there is a point where subtext can become way too subtle. I mean, almost everyone I've talked to (and it seems particularly prevalent outside of the more thought-oriented spaces like this) seems to think the main problem is the lying and the secrets, and are just not giving a tiny bit of thought to the noncon aspect. So if the show is intending that to come through, or have that be a big part of the issue for Sam being upset, then I don't think it's coming through.
And I think it goes along with the rather lax care the writers are giving to vessels in general at this point. They can joke about possession, even crudely, but they never take the next step into caring about it.
Yeah. I think it gets really complicated for me. The there-and-yet-not there aspect of it interests me, both the part of my brain that used to do texts for a living and the part of my brain that does fic (because I actually think that not acknowledging that aspect, to himself or to Dean, is a very plausible reaction if I'm trying to write headcanon!Sam). But I also think there's an accountability there, and I'm certainly not letting the writers, or the fandom, off the hook. I just don't think it's quite as simple as complete oblivion. I'm not even sure it's quite as simple as the comes and goes when convenient thing they do with vessels (significant in Repo Man, significant when it's Linda who's possessed, gone again the next episode). I guess I either have to get further out of the text and think "this is what happens when this set of writers at this point in time write something that unavoidably involves consent issues," and that means there's a lot going on there whether the writers intended it or not, that the weird semi-intention
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There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. A little too much has been left open to interpretation, if you ask me, and that's definitely the problem. The brothers don't finish conversations or sentences, so it's left up to this divided fandom to interpret what's not been said, what Sam and Dean are thinking? No, thanks. I've gotten to the point where I'll only engage conversation with those who can see the ambiguity of the brothers' situation.
And yes, Show IS treating us like children. We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)
it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been ( ... )
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Absolutely. I've been saying this for a long while - Sam's anger no longer fuels him and it's as though he's not found a substitute for it since Dean was lost in Purgatory or maybe even before that. Melancholy is a very good word for it.
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I'm torn. On the one hand, I want Sam to regain his spark, his spirit. To confront Dean and get everything -- UN-ambigously -- out in the open. On the other hand, Dean is sporting Cain's mark, undergoing dark changes, and I'm not all that keen on two brothers having a blowup when one of them may be succumbing to the Cain effect.
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Hmm. I see your point. While they'd never allow Dean to actually kill Sam, but yeah. Much like the ending scene in "Sex and Violence," that scenario could make for awesome -- and yes, terrifying! -- drama.
Okay. I'm in. :D
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Yeah, it's been pretty torrid out there. I think that this ep would have be written and probably even made after the one that started all this (ep 12 I think?). It makes me wonder if Carver knew how much trouble he was stirring up.
of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.AND that Dean's been working with Crowley. Sam can probably see Dean doing exactly the same thing that he's been through himself and just knows how badly it can end. I mean, it's already been pretty bad but things can always get worse for the Winchesters ( ... )
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Oh, bb, you have no idea how much I love and respect your level-headedness. Even when you're upset about an episode, you still manage to see more than one side to an issue.
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And this is really fucking terrible, especially when the person have the possession forced on him was the one person on the show who has had this same shit done to him since he was 6 months old. It's gross to repeatedly do this kind of thing and then ignore the ramifications of that specific aspect every single time.
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And I think it goes along with the rather lax care the writers are giving to vessels in general at this point. They can joke about possession, even crudely, but they never take the next step into caring about it.
YMMV, of course!
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