There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. A little too much has been left open to interpretation, if you ask me, and that's definitely the problem. The brothers don't finish conversations or sentences, so it's left up to this divided fandom to interpret what's not been said, what Sam and Dean are thinking? No, thanks. I've gotten to the point where I'll only engage conversation with those who can see the ambiguity of the brothers' situation.
And yes, Show IS treating us like children. We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)
it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been the Show's concern from the get-go), not that Dean made a choice for him, not that Sam wanted to die and Dean should have let him (which I don't believe actually), not that Sam is ungrateful for what Dean did or that he doesn't want to have a brotherhood. It's that Dean tricked him and he kept it secret. And before you all yell at me that that makes Sam's hypocritical (hello Ruby), it surely has to be about what Sam has learned from keeping that secret
This, so, SO much. The possession plotline was NEVER about non-con, it was about trust and secrets. (And darn it, even when Dean wanted to come clean and tell Sam what was going on, Gadreel either used the threat over Sam's life to frighten him out of it, or took Sam over at crucial moments.) Dean had no intention of keeping that secret as long as he did -- a lot of that was Gadreel's influence. I totally agree with your observation about Sam, Ruby, and Sam's learning process. Sam knows what damage withholding the truth can do to a relationship -- of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.
I no longer see Sam being angry. He's just sad now and more wistful about where they've come. Dean is deeply troubled - which I think is a mix of how Sam has reacted to finding out about Gadreel and Kevin's death.
Again, agreed. Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door. Has little reaction to Dean's reminiscence of the good old days. And Dean, man. Because of the lack of communication, all Dean sees is Sam turning away and "rejecting" him. (Gotta say I do think things will get worse before they get better. I'm positive that Cain's mark is causing the bad side-effects that Cain tried to warn Dean about. Dean didn't listen to the warnings, so he's unaware; Sam glanced at the Mark only the one time, has referred to it not once, and IDK, may have forgotten it exists. And, of course, they're both at odds right now, so less chance to notice that anything's wrong. Dean will go darkside, and it'll be up to Sam to recognize what's going on and -- I hope! -- save his brother.)
(or am I going to find out that everyone thinks Harry is a douche and should instantly forgive Ed because he tricked him because he loves having him around do much?)
Lord, I hope not. I've already lost enough faith in fandom, thanks.
Any ep that has bound and gagged boys is gonna be a winner in my books. Just saying…;)
"Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door."
Absolutely. I've been saying this for a long while - Sam's anger no longer fuels him and it's as though he's not found a substitute for it since Dean was lost in Purgatory or maybe even before that. Melancholy is a very good word for it.
Dean was lost in Purgatory; now Sam is just . . . lost. Oh, Show . . .
I'm torn. On the one hand, I want Sam to regain his spark, his spirit. To confront Dean and get everything -- UN-ambigously -- out in the open. On the other hand, Dean is sporting Cain's mark, undergoing dark changes, and I'm not all that keen on two brothers having a blowup when one of them may be succumbing to the Cain effect.
Hmm. I see your point. While they'd never allow Dean to actually kill Sam, but yeah. Much like the ending scene in "Sex and Violence," that scenario could make for awesome -- and yes, terrifying! -- drama.
We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)
Yeah, it's been pretty torrid out there. I think that this ep would have be written and probably even made after the one that started all this (ep 12 I think?). It makes me wonder if Carver knew how much trouble he was stirring up.
of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.
AND that Dean's been working with Crowley. Sam can probably see Dean doing exactly the same thing that he's been through himself and just knows how badly it can end. I mean, it's already been pretty bad but things can always get worse for the Winchesters.
And yeah, the non-con was never a consideration for the writers. I'd be pretty sure they've been caught out by fandoms response to that - it was all leading to Dean tricking Sam and losing Sam's trust - the one thing that Dean holds above everything else. And now it's about Dean dealing with fall out of that. Of course, I'd love it to be Sam dealing with the fall out of that as well but I think Sam's role in this is how it will affect Dean.
(Gotta say I do think things will get worse before they get better. I'm positive that Cain's mark is causing the bad side-effects that Cain tried to warn Dean about.
Ack! Worse! :((( My poor heart…
And it's weird about the Mark. I think if it was effecting Dean they'd make it clear to us (hee, this ep reminds me how unsubtle the show is), but maybe it will come out in the next couple of episodes. I would say for sure Sam is heading toward saving Dean in some way. I just hope he's not made to be hypocritical when doing so.
*hugs* hun! I'm glad I come across as level headed! :)) My brain (and heart!) is all over the place after an episode usually. xx
Yikes, I forgot all about the Sam/Ruby, Dean-Crowley connection. Thank you!
Oh, bb, you have no idea how much I love and respect your level-headedness. Even when you're upset about an episode, you still manage to see more than one side to an issue.
And this is really fucking terrible, especially when the person have the possession forced on him was the one person on the show who has had this same shit done to him since he was 6 months old. It's gross to repeatedly do this kind of thing and then ignore the ramifications of that specific aspect every single time.
I'm not sure that the noncon aspect IS completely absent from the text. I agree it's never going to be talked about openly, but even apart from the fact that we just see it happening onscreen over and over again, there are too many places in the scripts where the language about possession is sexualized for me to think that it's completely off the writers' radar or just a bizarre coincidence. I don't know if it's a deliberate attempt on the part of the writers to both raise and evade the issue, or if they genuinely think it works best left as subtext (I do think, in the end, that the repeated rape references surrounding Dean in season six ended up working without ever being brought into the open -- it's not impossible), or whether there is a kind of collective subconscious thing going on where the writers write in Abaddon's scene with Dean, or "sloppy seconds" or "I've been inside your brother" or the Teen Mom sequence but have no idea what they are doing. But whatever way it works at the Doyle intention level, I think it is part of the show.
I think there is a point where subtext can become way too subtle. I mean, almost everyone I've talked to (and it seems particularly prevalent outside of the more thought-oriented spaces like this) seems to think the main problem is the lying and the secrets, and are just not giving a tiny bit of thought to the noncon aspect. So if the show is intending that to come through, or have that be a big part of the issue for Sam being upset, then I don't think it's coming through.
And I think it goes along with the rather lax care the writers are giving to vessels in general at this point. They can joke about possession, even crudely, but they never take the next step into caring about it.
Yeah. I think it gets really complicated for me. The there-and-yet-not there aspect of it interests me, both the part of my brain that used to do texts for a living and the part of my brain that does fic (because I actually think that not acknowledging that aspect, to himself or to Dean, is a very plausible reaction if I'm trying to write headcanon!Sam). But I also think there's an accountability there, and I'm certainly not letting the writers, or the fandom, off the hook. I just don't think it's quite as simple as complete oblivion. I'm not even sure it's quite as simple as the comes and goes when convenient thing they do with vessels (significant in Repo Man, significant when it's Linda who's possessed, gone again the next episode). I guess I either have to get further out of the text and think "this is what happens when this set of writers at this point in time write something that unavoidably involves consent issues," and that means there's a lot going on there whether the writers intended it or not, that the weird semi-intention is itself an unpackable phenomenon, or I have to get further in and think "if I take it as premise that everything that happened in this fictional universe happened, what does that mean within universe." The presence of the jokes and the kind of uneasiness that joking around something suggests are relevant material for both approaches, and both would be different in different ways if these things weren't part of the show in the sense of the show giving no materials.
IDK, it's complicated and I'm not expressing it very well, but I don't think we either get to or have to say the story isn't about that stuff.
There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. A little too much has been left open to interpretation, if you ask me, and that's definitely the problem. The brothers don't finish conversations or sentences, so it's left up to this divided fandom to interpret what's not been said, what Sam and Dean are thinking? No, thanks. I've gotten to the point where I'll only engage conversation with those who can see the ambiguity of the brothers' situation.
And yes, Show IS treating us like children. We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)
it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been the Show's concern from the get-go), not that Dean made a choice for him, not that Sam wanted to die and Dean should have let him (which I don't believe actually), not that Sam is ungrateful for what Dean did or that he doesn't want to have a brotherhood. It's that Dean tricked him and he kept it secret. And before you all yell at me that that makes Sam's hypocritical (hello Ruby), it surely has to be about what Sam has learned from keeping that secret
This, so, SO much. The possession plotline was NEVER about non-con, it was about trust and secrets. (And darn it, even when Dean wanted to come clean and tell Sam what was going on, Gadreel either used the threat over Sam's life to frighten him out of it, or took Sam over at crucial moments.) Dean had no intention of keeping that secret as long as he did -- a lot of that was Gadreel's influence. I totally agree with your observation about Sam, Ruby, and Sam's learning process. Sam knows what damage withholding the truth can do to a relationship -- of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.
I no longer see Sam being angry. He's just sad now and more wistful about where they've come. Dean is deeply troubled - which I think is a mix of how Sam has reacted to finding out about Gadreel and Kevin's death.
Again, agreed. Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door. Has little reaction to Dean's reminiscence of the good old days. And Dean, man. Because of the lack of communication, all Dean sees is Sam turning away and "rejecting" him. (Gotta say I do think things will get worse before they get better. I'm positive that Cain's mark is causing the bad side-effects that Cain tried to warn Dean about. Dean didn't listen to the warnings, so he's unaware; Sam glanced at the Mark only the one time, has referred to it not once, and IDK, may have forgotten it exists. And, of course, they're both at odds right now, so less chance to notice that anything's wrong. Dean will go darkside, and it'll be up to Sam to recognize what's going on and -- I hope! -- save his brother.)
(or am I going to find out that everyone thinks Harry is a douche and should instantly forgive Ed because he tricked him because he loves having him around do much?)
Lord, I hope not. I've already lost enough faith in fandom, thanks.
Any ep that has bound and gagged boys is gonna be a winner in my books. Just saying…;)
Yes, please. :D
*hugs you and your blessedly level-headed self*
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Absolutely. I've been saying this for a long while - Sam's anger no longer fuels him and it's as though he's not found a substitute for it since Dean was lost in Purgatory or maybe even before that. Melancholy is a very good word for it.
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I'm torn. On the one hand, I want Sam to regain his spark, his spirit. To confront Dean and get everything -- UN-ambigously -- out in the open. On the other hand, Dean is sporting Cain's mark, undergoing dark changes, and I'm not all that keen on two brothers having a blowup when one of them may be succumbing to the Cain effect.
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Hmm. I see your point. While they'd never allow Dean to actually kill Sam, but yeah. Much like the ending scene in "Sex and Violence," that scenario could make for awesome -- and yes, terrifying! -- drama.
Okay. I'm in. :D
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Yeah, it's been pretty torrid out there. I think that this ep would have be written and probably even made after the one that started all this (ep 12 I think?). It makes me wonder if Carver knew how much trouble he was stirring up.
of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.
AND that Dean's been working with Crowley. Sam can probably see Dean doing exactly the same thing that he's been through himself and just knows how badly it can end. I mean, it's already been pretty bad but things can always get worse for the Winchesters.
And yeah, the non-con was never a consideration for the writers. I'd be pretty sure they've been caught out by fandoms response to that - it was all leading to Dean tricking Sam and losing Sam's trust - the one thing that Dean holds above everything else. And now it's about Dean dealing with fall out of that. Of course, I'd love it to be Sam dealing with the fall out of that as well but I think Sam's role in this is how it will affect Dean.
(Gotta say I do think things will get worse before they get better. I'm positive that Cain's mark is causing the bad side-effects that Cain tried to warn Dean about.
Ack! Worse! :((( My poor heart…
And it's weird about the Mark. I think if it was effecting Dean they'd make it clear to us (hee, this ep reminds me how unsubtle the show is), but maybe it will come out in the next couple of episodes. I would say for sure Sam is heading toward saving Dean in some way. I just hope he's not made to be hypocritical when doing so.
*hugs* hun! I'm glad I come across as level headed! :)) My brain (and heart!) is all over the place after an episode usually.
xx
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Oh, bb, you have no idea how much I love and respect your level-headedness. Even when you're upset about an episode, you still manage to see more than one side to an issue.
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And this is really fucking terrible, especially when the person have the possession forced on him was the one person on the show who has had this same shit done to him since he was 6 months old. It's gross to repeatedly do this kind of thing and then ignore the ramifications of that specific aspect every single time.
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And I think it goes along with the rather lax care the writers are giving to vessels in general at this point. They can joke about possession, even crudely, but they never take the next step into caring about it.
YMMV, of course!
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IDK, it's complicated and I'm not expressing it very well, but I don't think we either get to or have to say the story isn't about that stuff.
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