I liked your tie-in with the MOTW, I hadn't picked that up.
My take on Sam's 'I would not do the same thing' is because he respects Dean's right to make his own decisions. Sam usually follows Dean, allowing him to make most of the decisions in their lives; even in S5 he wanted approval before doing what needed to be done,
I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!
Hey. I'm always thinking - what's the connection and this one was hard. But after seeing the end it seems to be about those lines you are prepared to cross for family.
I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!
Yeah. And this will be what makes this all fall apart. Especially is the fandom reaction is anything to go by (now that I've had a chance to check some out). They've made Dean look like the one who has been wronged by Sam's words where Sam has really spoken about some home truths that Dean does really need to take on board.
It's sad in many ways because what Sam has been through as been COMPLETELY overlooked. We never got to see the effect of the possession and Dean's deception has really had on him so everybody (and wow, I think everybody) see's Sam's reaction as being harsh. We only see Dean being devastated hearing the truth rather than acknowledging that Dean needs to be devastated after his choice. Not to say it isn't
( ... )
*hugs* you. See, the thing I'd love to see is people saying "I know why Sam said that" - if they look at the history they would understand why he's said it. Instead we see Dean's devastation and can't understand how Sam can hurt his brother so much (not remembering - because show decided not to show us - how hurt Sam was by Dean's actions).
I never forget that Dean is amazing and has a heart bigger than anyone else on the show. A heart that leads him to make dubious decisions. xoxo
My question is how many people are just tired at this point, you know? Going through another round of the versus wars of S4 (with extra ammunition now for the Sam-hating side, whether it was what he was saying or not) just to wait for them to "fix" what Carver re-broke is exhausting lol. And, for me at least, the difference between this and S4/5 is that at least back then you could feel how palpable the love was, even under the darkest circumstances. Now, maybe it's the writing, maybe the actors are more bored, maybe I just am, but I don't even feel like Sam likes Dean. Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm? That seems like something that should be cared about, and the nonchalance is disconcerting.
Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol
( ... )
Going through another round of the versus wars of S4 (with extra ammunition now for the Sam-hating side, whether it was what he was saying or not) just to wait for them to "fix" what Carver re-broke is exhausting lol.
It is and I would love not to be going through this again. I know many people have jumped ship because, yeah, it's re-hashing it all over again. I think i've actually come to accept that Sam is always hated - no matter what he does. Even after being a victim no one seems to see his pov. I actually think the show did a pretty good job of allowing him to speak tonight, which is probably why I'm so happy. But yeah - sick of the infighting (I wasn't part of it all during S4 so maybe I'm not so jaded).
Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm? It would appear not - and I think that's really sad too. I don't know why they let that slide so easily. And yet tonight Sam was all panicky when he knew Dean was in danger. I don't see Sam not liking Dean, but I think I am blinked in that area
( ... )
I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care. That's what Dean is hearing, and since we only get Dean POV, that's what most of fandom hears. I think I take issue not with what Sam is saying (you KNOW how much I loathed what Dean did in 9.1) but how they are having him say it. Two weeks in a row, he's basically destroyed Dean's reason for being, and then walked out with actually making sure Dean understood what he was saying. Because Dean didn't understand, and I think Sam knew that Dean didn't understand, so to me that's the part that feels cruel. Again, my first thought was that it would be totally in character for Dean to shoot himself in the head after that scene, and I hate feeling that way
( ... )
Firstly - ETA = A BIG FAT YES!! I mean, the WHOLE season has been set up on this awful decision Dean had to make. Dean HAD to save him - only to end up having this awful rift between him (and fans).
This is also how I felt about the beginning of S8. A totally contrived conflict between them because Sam didn't look for Dean (which STILL pisses me off) I am less annoyed by Sam saying what he did tonight than I did with them making him a brother that didn't even try to look for Dean).
I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care. Ok. I think I'm getting a better picture about why fans are pissed of with Sam (I seriously couldn't figure it out). Sam is coming across as cruel. That IS sad to hear that - because I didn't see it like that (and I know we all have different ways of perceiving). It's weird for me then because I think we all(maybe all??) expected a huge backlash from Sam when he learned the truth about what
( ... )
Huh. I wish I'd read your reaction first. Stupid time zones.
Even before I read your post, I was feeling a lot better about the episode (especially that final scene) this morning than I did last night, but I don't think I'll ever get to the levels of squee that you and some have reached. Or, for that matter, the abysmal levels of hatred I've seen from others. I seem to be stuck in the middle. (Maybe because I'm a Dean!girl who loves Sam? IDK.) In any case, I'm still recovering. And I definitely need a rewatch. :)
I do love what you said regarding the MOTW situation paralleling that of Sam and Dean. I loved that part, and kudos to the writers for doing it.
I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.I so, SO hope that you're right, and I really
( ... )
*hugs* I think the fan reaction is more painful than what's going on in the show. I have no idea why I don't see it like them (maybe because I sympathise with Sam? but still love Dean?).
I have this very weird way of looking at this as Sam being the only one who can actually keep Dean "human" (Dean's even said this) and this is a great example of this. Dean DOES cross lines. I don't think even the most one eyed Dean girls can deny that. Dean DID cross a major line when allowing an angel to possess Sam without his knowledge or consent. If Sam doesn't say something about this NO ONE will. He's the only one. He'll be hated for it. Dean will be incredibly hurt by it but what should happen is that it should be Dean's saviour. Sam should be Dean's saviour by knowing Dean well enough to call him on it (I think the monster in the ep killing people may have been representing Dean - his sister tried to save him but he didn't listen. Let's hope the opposite happens to Dean and he DOES listen
( ... )
I think the monster in the ep killing people may have been representing Dean - his sister tried to save him but he didn't listen. Let's hope the opposite happens to Dean and he DOES listen
That was my thought, too, that Dean's situation correlates with the monster's. Something bad's going to happen to Dean because of the Mark; Sam will try to protect and save him . . . and as you say, let's just hope that Dean listens. Lets Sam save him.
Dean DOES cross lines. I don't think even the most one eyed Dean girls can deny that.
Agreed to the first part. There's been many a time when this Dean girl wanted to slap Dean upside the head. But alas, for the more, erm, binary members of fandom, there's not much hope for understanding. (This applies to Dean and Sam girls alike. Some will always see "Saint Dean" vs. evol Sam; others will always see the opposite.)
That ep was ALL SAM AND DEAN!! \o/ And aside from the underlying issues between them it was pretty much old school. Which is what people have been demanding for a while now. No
( ... )
My gut reaction was with Dean's - the whole episode was building towards that moment where Sam gives him the honest truth and it did leave me all churned up. Not like some reactions I've seen out of the corner of my eye (not going there, I can do without the looney fringe brother hate, cheers thanks a lot) and after some reflection time I am reaching where you are, I think.
Thanks for expressing it all so well!
"Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.
This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?)." But of course, this is exactly how Dean is going to see it, which is why it feels like such a kick in the stomach. Even if it was a much needed kick! I think you might be right, they might be aiming to bring Dean even lower before patching this up - hence the heavy drinking making a reappearance. But I too, hope this will be the making of them.
I went into this episode with a sense of dread (and you know my only hint? My hug vid got some re-tweets today so I figured the episode might have been a sad one) so maybe because it wasn't nearly as sad as I imagined it might be I ended up being much happier about it.
Even if it was a much needed kick! I think you might be right, they might be aiming to bring Dean even lower before patching this up - hence the heavy drinking making a reappearance.
Yeah, I think Dean will hit rock bottom (maybe) before he realises or sees that Sam don't mean that he doesn't love him and that he himself would die for him if he had the chance. He only said he wouldn't do something that Dean wouldn't want him to do (allow abaddon into his body for example) or make a deal that would bring him back from the dead. Dean (and I think maybe fans?) is mixing up Sam not loving and appreciating him with him simply saying there are lines he wouldn't cross. I think Sam knowing what those lines are shows him to have made some growth. Is it maybe that Sam
( ... )
I saw enough in the few minutes I was on tumblr this morning to know to stay away from there for the moment. The intemperate, thoughtless, kick first, think later (if at all) reactions just get my dander up.
I honestly think its because show just hasnt sold anyone on the concept that Sam loves dean as much as Dean loves him because he abandoned him in purgatory, didnt seem to give a dam when he got back, failed to save him from hell, etc. The Sam story feels too unbalanced. All we ever get from him are his cutting words but no action to show his love? Sam is a cold, weve always known this but its when its turned against his brother that the contrast shines so brightly.
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My take on Sam's 'I would not do the same thing' is because he respects Dean's right to make his own decisions. Sam usually follows Dean, allowing him to make most of the decisions in their lives; even in S5 he wanted approval before doing what needed to be done,
I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!
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I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!
Yeah. And this will be what makes this all fall apart. Especially is the fandom reaction is anything to go by (now that I've had a chance to check some out). They've made Dean look like the one who has been wronged by Sam's words where Sam has really spoken about some home truths that Dean does really need to take on board.
It's sad in many ways because what Sam has been through as been COMPLETELY overlooked. We never got to see the effect of the possession and Dean's deception has really had on him so everybody (and wow, I think everybody) see's Sam's reaction as being harsh. We only see Dean being devastated hearing the truth rather than acknowledging that Dean needs to be devastated after his choice. Not to say it isn't ( ... )
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I never forget that Dean is amazing and has a heart bigger than anyone else on the show. A heart that leads him to make dubious decisions.
xoxo
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Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol ( ... )
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It is and I would love not to be going through this again. I know many people have jumped ship because, yeah, it's re-hashing it all over again. I think i've actually come to accept that Sam is always hated - no matter what he does. Even after being a victim no one seems to see his pov. I actually think the show did a pretty good job of allowing him to speak tonight, which is probably why I'm so happy. But yeah - sick of the infighting (I wasn't part of it all during S4 so maybe I'm not so jaded).
Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm? It would appear not - and I think that's really sad too. I don't know why they let that slide so easily. And yet tonight Sam was all panicky when he knew Dean was in danger. I don't see Sam not liking Dean, but I think I am blinked in that area ( ... )
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This is also how I felt about the beginning of S8. A totally contrived conflict between them because Sam didn't look for Dean (which STILL pisses me off) I am less annoyed by Sam saying what he did tonight than I did with them making him a brother that didn't even try to look for Dean).
I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care. Ok. I think I'm getting a better picture about why fans are pissed of with Sam (I seriously couldn't figure it out). Sam is coming across as cruel. That IS sad to hear that - because I didn't see it like that (and I know we all have different ways of perceiving). It's weird for me then because I think we all(maybe all??) expected a huge backlash from Sam when he learned the truth about what ( ... )
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Even before I read your post, I was feeling a lot better about the episode (especially that final scene) this morning than I did last night, but I don't think I'll ever get to the levels of squee that you and some have reached. Or, for that matter, the abysmal levels of hatred I've seen from others. I seem to be stuck in the middle. (Maybe because I'm a Dean!girl who loves Sam? IDK.) In any case, I'm still recovering. And I definitely need a rewatch. :)
I do love what you said regarding the MOTW situation paralleling that of Sam and Dean. I loved that part, and kudos to the writers for doing it.
I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.I so, SO hope that you're right, and I really ( ... )
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I have this very weird way of looking at this as Sam being the only one who can actually keep Dean "human" (Dean's even said this) and this is a great example of this. Dean DOES cross lines. I don't think even the most one eyed Dean girls can deny that. Dean DID cross a major line when allowing an angel to possess Sam without his knowledge or consent. If Sam doesn't say something about this NO ONE will. He's the only one. He'll be hated for it. Dean will be incredibly hurt by it but what should happen is that it should be Dean's saviour. Sam should be Dean's saviour by knowing Dean well enough to call him on it (I think the monster in the ep killing people may have been representing Dean - his sister tried to save him but he didn't listen. Let's hope the opposite happens to Dean and he DOES listen ( ... )
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That was my thought, too, that Dean's situation correlates with the monster's. Something bad's going to happen to Dean because of the Mark; Sam will try to protect and save him . . . and as you say, let's just hope that Dean listens. Lets Sam save him.
Dean DOES cross lines. I don't think even the most one eyed Dean girls can deny that.
Agreed to the first part. There's been many a time when this Dean girl wanted to slap Dean upside the head. But alas, for the more, erm, binary members of fandom, there's not much hope for understanding. (This applies to Dean and Sam girls alike. Some will always see "Saint Dean" vs. evol Sam; others will always see the opposite.)
That ep was ALL SAM AND DEAN!! \o/ And aside from the underlying issues between them it was pretty much old school. Which is what people have been demanding for a while now. No ( ... )
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Ain't that the truth!
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Thanks for expressing it all so well!
"Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.
This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?)."
But of course, this is exactly how Dean is going to see it, which is why it feels like such a kick in the stomach. Even if it was a much needed kick! I think you might be right, they might be aiming to bring Dean even lower before patching this up - hence the heavy drinking making a reappearance. But I too, hope this will be the making of them.
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Even if it was a much needed kick! I think you might be right, they might be aiming to bring Dean even lower before patching this up - hence the heavy drinking making a reappearance.
Yeah, I think Dean will hit rock bottom (maybe) before he realises or sees that Sam don't mean that he doesn't love him and that he himself would die for him if he had the chance. He only said he wouldn't do something that Dean wouldn't want him to do (allow abaddon into his body for example) or make a deal that would bring him back from the dead. Dean (and I think maybe fans?) is mixing up Sam not loving and appreciating him with him simply saying there are lines he wouldn't cross. I think Sam knowing what those lines are shows him to have made some growth. Is it maybe that Sam ( ... )
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