My question is how many people are just tired at this point, you know? Going through another round of the versus wars of S4 (with extra ammunition now for the Sam-hating side, whether it was what he was saying or not) just to wait for them to "fix" what Carver re-broke is exhausting lol. And, for me at least, the difference between this and S4/5 is that at least back then you could feel how palpable the love was, even under the darkest circumstances. Now, maybe it's the writing, maybe the actors are more bored, maybe I just am, but I don't even feel like Sam likes Dean. Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm? That seems like something that should be cared about, and the nonchalance is disconcerting.
Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol
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Going through another round of the versus wars of S4 (with extra ammunition now for the Sam-hating side, whether it was what he was saying or not) just to wait for them to "fix" what Carver re-broke is exhausting lol.
It is and I would love not to be going through this again. I know many people have jumped ship because, yeah, it's re-hashing it all over again. I think i've actually come to accept that Sam is always hated - no matter what he does. Even after being a victim no one seems to see his pov. I actually think the show did a pretty good job of allowing him to speak tonight, which is probably why I'm so happy. But yeah - sick of the infighting (I wasn't part of it all during S4 so maybe I'm not so jaded).
Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm? It would appear not - and I think that's really sad too. I don't know why they let that slide so easily. And yet tonight Sam was all panicky when he knew Dean was in danger. I don't see Sam not liking Dean, but I think I am blinked in that area
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I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care. That's what Dean is hearing, and since we only get Dean POV, that's what most of fandom hears. I think I take issue not with what Sam is saying (you KNOW how much I loathed what Dean did in 9.1) but how they are having him say it. Two weeks in a row, he's basically destroyed Dean's reason for being, and then walked out with actually making sure Dean understood what he was saying. Because Dean didn't understand, and I think Sam knew that Dean didn't understand, so to me that's the part that feels cruel. Again, my first thought was that it would be totally in character for Dean to shoot himself in the head after that scene, and I hate feeling that way
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Firstly - ETA = A BIG FAT YES!! I mean, the WHOLE season has been set up on this awful decision Dean had to make. Dean HAD to save him - only to end up having this awful rift between him (and fans).
This is also how I felt about the beginning of S8. A totally contrived conflict between them because Sam didn't look for Dean (which STILL pisses me off) I am less annoyed by Sam saying what he did tonight than I did with them making him a brother that didn't even try to look for Dean).
I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care. Ok. I think I'm getting a better picture about why fans are pissed of with Sam (I seriously couldn't figure it out). Sam is coming across as cruel. That IS sad to hear that - because I didn't see it like that (and I know we all have different ways of perceiving). It's weird for me then because I think we all(maybe all??) expected a huge backlash from Sam when he learned the truth about what
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i could agree with you IF show would actually allow Sam to BE Deans savior. He NEVER is. Im sure that is whats adding to the sam hate out there. I love them both but man its hard at the moment to even like sam a little.
it seemed like Dean was actually hearing some of what Sam had to say.
I don't think Dean was hearing it at all, and that's the problem. Dean's been terrified of rejection his entire life, especially from Sam, and all last night did was validate, in Dean's mind, that Sam will never care about Dean as much as Dean cares about him. I think Dean's been scared of that a long time, and it's why he's so affected by, say, finding out in the Heaven episode that Sam's happy memories were without him (and that Sam didn't "think of family like you do, Dean"). It's also why he was so hurt by Sam not even bothering to look for him while he was in purgatory.
Does it mean that Sam meant it that way or that Dean is right? No. But we the viewer get so little Sam POV that unless we already identify with him as a character, we are going to be more likely to automatically see things through Dean's devastated eyes
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Yeah, I don't think Dean is hearing it either, and I think as I said in my review that they are setting this up as a season eight parallel. Just as Dean said things to Sam that sent him on a downward spiral, so Sam is doing that to Dean this season. The problem is that fans are going to argue about who's wrong or right, and I don't think that's the issue. It's how Sam last season or Dean this season takes the words, and tbh I do think that a part of Sam intends to wound Dean with those words just as Dean did Sam last season. I'm not going re-hash my entire argument here, but I think that Sam will probably be faced with a similar dilemma to Dean's in 8.23 and 9.01 at some point.
I used to think that is what they were leading up to, that Sam would finally "save" Dean...but I'm not so sure now. I honestly think that Sam's POV last night is Carver's POV, so doing any kind of parallel to what Dean did last season would be completely opposite that. It makes me wonder if Dean's going to go darkside and Sam's going to choose NOT to save him.
Possible, I mean Sam is pigheaded, but then what? Does Sam have to kill his brother who's become a monster? Is that where they're going and if so ... hm, how does Sam live with himself knowing that he is at least partially responsible for Dean going down that path? I just wonder if Sam will be able to stick with his principles if faced with Dean choosing death. I'm thinking John in "Devil's Trap" or Sam in "Croatoan" here. Would Sam kill Dean or opt to try to save him. I'm wondering just how much are they willing to second guess the first five season because there are any number of points along the journey that "could" have changed the course of the narrative.
I mean, Carver wrote himself into a bit of a corner, no? I mean, if we are assuming that Dean goes darkside and is pushed to the brink and needs "saving" at all. If Sam doesn't follow through with what he said last night, then Carver is invalidating his own mission statement lol.
Or there is no life-or-death situation for Dean and he just drinks a lot and kills things for the rest of the season, which is also possible.
Guh, who the hell knows? This is why I don't really try to guess logically what will happen. One, I'm generally not that smart and two, not sure the writers are either, so logic is this mythical perfume none of us can afford...
There are other ways to save Dean that aren't from physical death. We don't know how the MOC will affect Dean. He may need to be saved from that. Cain did kill his brother because he believed Abel was going to do something wrong. What if the Mark makes Dean begin to believe he has to kill Sam to save him? What if the only way to free Dean from the Mark is for Sam to let Dean kill him. I'm not buying that saving Dean has to be not letting him die. I think there are other things to be saved from.
Oh, absolutely! There could be many ways this shakes out! I'm not sure any of them will make a certain, very polarized demographic happy, but I really look forward to the brothers' shifting dynamics.
I don't think Dean was hearing it at all, and that's the problem.
Yeah. You are right there. I think I was thinking of the scene before when Sam said would it have been right to kill Sam when Gadreel was in him. Dean really stopped to think about that and in the end didn't kill the monster. I felt like some progress was made there (at least some awareness).
But yes. Hearing that from Sam is Dean hearing the one thing he hoped he'd never hear. And it makes me think that even though Dean knew what he did wasn't exactly a great idea (and that Sam would be mad at him) I don't think he counted on Dean being this honest with him. And yes, it cements the idea in his brain that Sam just really doesn't care as much for Dean as Dean cares for Sam.
It's heartbreaking to think about but I am going to remain stubbornly optimistic that down the track we'll see that not looking for Dean (which I hated anyway) and now saying he wouldn't cross lines to save Dean are about just that - not crossing those lines - and not because he doesn't
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Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol ( ... )
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It is and I would love not to be going through this again. I know many people have jumped ship because, yeah, it's re-hashing it all over again. I think i've actually come to accept that Sam is always hated - no matter what he does. Even after being a victim no one seems to see his pov. I actually think the show did a pretty good job of allowing him to speak tonight, which is probably why I'm so happy. But yeah - sick of the infighting (I wasn't part of it all during S4 so maybe I'm not so jaded).
Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm? It would appear not - and I think that's really sad too. I don't know why they let that slide so easily. And yet tonight Sam was all panicky when he knew Dean was in danger. I don't see Sam not liking Dean, but I think I am blinked in that area ( ... )
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This is also how I felt about the beginning of S8. A totally contrived conflict between them because Sam didn't look for Dean (which STILL pisses me off) I am less annoyed by Sam saying what he did tonight than I did with them making him a brother that didn't even try to look for Dean).
I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care. Ok. I think I'm getting a better picture about why fans are pissed of with Sam (I seriously couldn't figure it out). Sam is coming across as cruel. That IS sad to hear that - because I didn't see it like that (and I know we all have different ways of perceiving). It's weird for me then because I think we all(maybe all??) expected a huge backlash from Sam when he learned the truth about what ( ... )
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I don't think Dean was hearing it at all, and that's the problem. Dean's been terrified of rejection his entire life, especially from Sam, and all last night did was validate, in Dean's mind, that Sam will never care about Dean as much as Dean cares about him. I think Dean's been scared of that a long time, and it's why he's so affected by, say, finding out in the Heaven episode that Sam's happy memories were without him (and that Sam didn't "think of family like you do, Dean"). It's also why he was so hurt by Sam not even bothering to look for him while he was in purgatory.
Does it mean that Sam meant it that way or that Dean is right? No. But we the viewer get so little Sam POV that unless we already identify with him as a character, we are going to be more likely to automatically see things through Dean's devastated eyes ( ... )
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Or there is no life-or-death situation for Dean and he just drinks a lot and kills things for the rest of the season, which is also possible.
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Haha, truer words, my friend!
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Yeah. You are right there. I think I was thinking of the scene before when Sam said would it have been right to kill Sam when Gadreel was in him. Dean really stopped to think about that and in the end didn't kill the monster. I felt like some progress was made there (at least some awareness).
But yes. Hearing that from Sam is Dean hearing the one thing he hoped he'd never hear. And it makes me think that even though Dean knew what he did wasn't exactly a great idea (and that Sam would be mad at him) I don't think he counted on Dean being this honest with him. And yes, it cements the idea in his brain that Sam just really doesn't care as much for Dean as Dean cares for Sam.
It's heartbreaking to think about but I am going to remain stubbornly optimistic that down the track we'll see that not looking for Dean (which I hated anyway) and now saying he wouldn't cross lines to save Dean are about just that - not crossing those lines - and not because he doesn't ( ... )
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