Christians and The Old Testament

[arturis]

I don't know a lot about the Bible and I don't care about it in itself, but I do care about how it and the attendant 2000+ years of scholarship on it affect the behavior of the monkeys I need to share space with

Comments

[tarq]

I feel like we've had this discussion before?

I'm kinda curious how this is affecting your life, and what needs to be done to put you in a place of peace about it. I don't think you're ever going to know enough layman knowledge about Christianity to put you in a place of understanding on these matters, and I think doing actual theological study is outside your scope. So I don't know how much legwork you're asking others to do for you in this to discover the details your hunting for, but I'm not sure you'll find what you're looking for.

I'm being general about this, I know. But it seems you keep redressing the same core question, which is how are Christians either not in a constant state of strife, or why don't they confess to themselves that their lifestyles are built on obvious and apparent lies or myths. And you're trying to find the exact support beams so you can either identify them, or kick them out from under unsuspecting Christians you debate in the future.

I'm projecting here, I know. If yours is one of genuine, raw curiosity, we could do some actual bible study and theological investigation to find some answers. But with you I just never believe that's the case.

[arturis]

Regarding the overarching issues you bring up, I don't have any agenda against Christianity as a whole, if I ever did. While I find the teachings of the Bible repugnant, I recognize there are Christians I'm okay with. A lot of them, actually.

I actually don't care what the Bible says, I only care about what other people think the Bible says, and what it causes them to believe. With regard to this topic specifically, I see two reasonable tacts to take: either everything from the old covenants is relevant to you or none of it is. Obviously most Christians follow neither of those, on the one hand embracing the Ten Commandments as relevant, but rejecting kosher laws, and I don't know where the line is and what side everything falls on. Or why the line is where it is. Specifically, of course, I'm concerned about the prohibitions against homosexuality and divorce and where those fit in any particular Christian's worldview. But I'm also curious about everything else that's a part of the first covenant and why some of it is preserved and the rest isn't.

Since every one of these questions is going to have a different answer by sect, or even by individual, I know there isn't one single answer. So looking at the Bible myself and concluding what I believe it to say is pointless. But I would definitely be interested in sitting with any Christians I know and discussing the specifics, even if that involves reading actual passages from an actual Bible.

[tarq]

It's always been my understanding that the New Testament was a huge ammendment to the Old Testament, per Jesus' teachings. So I guess one place to start is to find out exactly what Jesus taught and said that released Christians from their old testament laws. We also know that no denomination follows the bible correctly, it's up to the individual. There's also the philosophy that when you enter a relationship with God, you find what God has for you specifically, making the entire Christian thing subjective (which is probably pretty frustrating from the outside).

I don't believe you would ever have ill intentions, you're not a jerk. But I do see the debater In you wanting all the facts, when centuries of people have debated this same problem, I just don't see an east or satisfying answer revealing itself. I don't want you to get frustrated by it.

I can't believe I typed all this from my stupid phone.

[arturis]

The subjectivity of it certainly was frustrating at one point, but I don't mind it now. In fact, knowing there is no single authority to which all Christians defer is nice. They aren't a monolith, just a bunch of people trying to find the truth.

[lassarakaur]

Something else you might want to consider is the difference between the Torah (the Old Testament in its native Hebrew) and the translated versions that most of Christiandom derive meaning from. I think you'll find that translations have warped the meanings of the text in certain circumstances.

For example (and this was explained to me a long time ago, so I am going to butcher the actual facts) in the Mishna when discussing compensation provided to a pregnant women who lost the child because of some act of the other (e.g., physical violence) the other is required to compensate her loss monetarily. In the translated version, the other is not allowed to compensate her loss monetarily.

In Judaism, you cannot pay for a life, so in essence, one could make the argument that this was where the pro-life movement started, as a typo/mistranslation. It's equally possible that they could have purposefully made that change to reflect their values, but regardless, it's something to consider but likely outside the scope of what you're trying to set out to do.

[arturis]

What's your take on all the other rules you're supposed to abide by, like homosexuality being an abomination, or divorce for that matter? Or say putting a man to death for planting two crops of different kinds in adjacent rows?

[lassarakaur]

This may not help you very much but as you know I view the contents of the Torah as equal parts cultural heritage and equal parts religion. Since I don't really support organized religion, most everything I view as sort of a road map to my cultural heritage. As such, I don't adhere to the rigid dogma of the religion contained within the texts. For me, the text is a cultural guide during a period of fanatical religious beliefs. Under those circumstances, I take what I can, and ignore the elements that I believe are obsolete.

For example, keeping Kosher is not a religious experience for me, but an expression of my cultural heritage. Viewing homosexuality as an abomination, while technically also an expression of my heritage, is abhorrent to me, so I choose not to express that bigoted view.