God I hope you are right.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 19:04:37 UTC
So, the thing about speculation like this is that it makes so much sense that I become totally convinced it's going to happen, and then the reality is that the show just kinda dances around the idea all season, but generally drops the ball as far as doing anything really satisfying with it. I really hope that's not the case this time!
It's basically established that Dean and Benny are each-other's post-purgatory sponsors. And It would be so bloody redundant to rehash the whole my-new friend-isn't-totally-evil-oh-wait-they-are :( scenario. But one would also think that sending one person to hell and then bringing them back would be plenty too. Sigh.
I think you're right to observe Benny not realizing until that moment at the end of 8.05 that Sam had no clue who he was, and understanding that the conversation Dean was about to have with Sam would not be an easy one. And while Benny definitely got some closure in that ep, I don't know if his struggle to come to terms with who he is is quite over. I definitely saw Benny echoing Dean in early season 4 after Cas had brought him back, wondering why anyone would bother saving him. But the fact that Benny still has a few open wounds doesn't mean he's not capable of helping Dean, just as Dean's always been there for Sam even while he was weighed down by a ton of his own shit.
In many ways, I think Benny is exactly what Dean needs right now. A fighter like himself, stoic and snarky and filled with existential angst. And a REAL monster. Maybe there's something of a mirror in Benny for Dean. A way for Dean to find the good in himself again, by finding the good in Benny.
Because he can't really do that with Sam at this point. since last season, Sam's kinda moved beyond all that. Skipped ahead of Dean somehow. I'm not saying Sam's got no issues left, but it's definitely not season 2 anymore. We don't have Sam angsting about going dark-side anymore, and Dean focused on keeping his brother on the side of light.
MORE SPECULATION! Maybe without that struggle to keep Sam in the light anymore, Dean felt like there was little keeping him there anymore. Maybe he's found a replacement in Benny.
In any case, as you said, the lines of communication between Sam and Dean are pretty darn staticky right now. They've both just been through very dissimilar experiences, and are neither of them being very forthcoming about them, which just adds to the disconnect.
God I hope you are right. part deux.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 19:05:42 UTC
One more thing! I'm not sure I have quite the same take on Dean's attitude though.
There’s just no talking to someone who is telling you that your own feelings about your life are not just wrong, but erasing them outright and substituting their own. I really love how that scene contrasts with the scene in late season 1 between Sam and Dean, with a Dean who is much more vulnerable to the idea of Sam leaving because he doesn’t feel he has any control over it.
While I agree Dean IS becoming more and more like John, I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam. I hope this isn't my Dean!girl bias, but I see Dean's attitude towards Sam wanting to quit stemming from those old abandonment issues, along with a not so healthy dose of denial. When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything.
I think in Dean's mind, when Sam abandoned hunting after 7.23, he also abandoned Dean in Purgatory. And for Sam to say that he's going to give it up for good, well, that's akin to saying he's going to give up being Dean's brother (by Dean's fucked up logic anyway). And Dean just can't accept that. Not in the "UNACCEPTABLE" army drill sergeant kind of way, but in the hurts-too-much-to-even-consider kind of way.
Also, Season 1 Dean had fresh memories of being separated from his College-going brother. It made sense that losing Sam to that life again was something Dean could imagine. In that way, Dean was actually less vulnerable, since he was actually able to at least see the possibility of Sam leaving. But now he's barely capable of that. Now that they have been hunting together for so long, it's become hard for Dean to see them do anything else. Not only that, but he's been through the heartache of having a home and family, and having it ripped away. He's learned the hard way that there's nothing else for them to do but be hunters. No other possibilities even exist in his head anymore.
I can understand why Dean's reaction would be interpreted as controlling, and maybe Sam sees it that way. But I also got the impression that Sam kinda understood that Dean is just in denial about it, and that's why Sam didn't lash back, why he just kinda let it go. Because he knew it wasn't really about Dean trying to control his life the way John used to. It was about Dean not being mentally capable of even considering that reality.
Am I working to hard to make Dean seem more sympathetic? ABSOLUTELY. Because that is my raison d'etre! Lol. And essentially, I wholeheartedly agree:
I don’t think the story is going to be about whether or not Dean is right to trust Benny the Vampirate at all. And it’s also why I think the found footage episode about the kids turned into werewolves is more about Dean than it is about Benny - the show might be showing Dean acting like a complete asshole to Sam but it’s never lost sight of why exactly Dean is behaving this way, either.
Re: God I hope you are right. part deux.amonitrateNovember 4 2012, 20:22:02 UTC
While I agree Dean IS becoming more and more like John, I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam. I hope this isn't my Dean!girl bias, but I see Dean's attitude towards Sam wanting to quit stemming from those old abandonment issues, along with a not so healthy dose of denial. When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything.
First off, yeah, I didn't really get into where Dean's coming from here from his POV, or what's feeding his behavior toward Sam in this. Just that his behavior toward Sam in that particular scene was fucked up in a specific way.
I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam, I think what he said was a controlling thing to say. I dont' think he was necessarily aware of how controlling/manipulative it was, and I don't think it was a conscious attempt to control Sam. But I also don't think any of that negates that it's a type of emotional blackmail. That kind of thing doesn't need to be overtly conscious in order to be fucked up, you know? I don't think Dean can control Sam because I think Dean and Sam are equals in their power dynamic at this point. Dean can be enormously dysfunctional and codependent towards Sam, which was what was going on there. It's basically a form of gaslighting. I REJECT YOUR FEELINGS AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN.
And yeah I agree with you that it is coming from a place of feeling abandoned and a massive sense of denial. And I don't think Sam was totally spotless in some of the hunting-related interactions -- I chose to highlight this one exchange because I think it's probably the most fucked up, but Sam's framing of his own desire to leave hunting has gotten defensively offensive (lol, sorry, I'm struggling for words here) in the way he reframes what Dean finds value in as being value-less. I can't remember the specific dialog right now. But Sam's line about "you can hunt and not have to explain yourself to anyone" was a dig. One I'm kinda sympathetic to, but still. Sam's been passive-aggressive on a low level all throughout the season, it's just a harder thing to pinpoint I think because a lot of it has been in line delivery and body language (sighs, eyerolling) rather than outright dialog?
I think Sam's in a lot of denial about what Dean went through and how hard a time he's having coming back, but probably not as much denial as Dean's in right now about how IF HE SAYS LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU loud enough, Sam won't leave the family business.
When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything.
Yeah. I thnk this can be true and can also be emotionally blackmailing at the same time. Because he's erased Sam as a person with his own needs and life from the equation, there. He's basically saying "loving me means agreeing with me and remaining in this life with me because I can't understand that the two can be separate."
So yeah, I agre with you about where all of this is coming from. I maybe came off as not empathizing with Dean in this post, but that couldn't be less true! I totally empathize with where he's coming from. I'm just kinda trying to dissect his behavior from the outside, rather than from inside his head.
But I also got the impression that Sam kinda understood that Dean is just in denial about it, and that's why Sam didn't lash back, why he just kinda let it go.
Yeah, I do think Sam recognizes it for what it was. Doesn't make it any easier to deal with, I guess? I think he let it go because he recognized that was going to be a totally irrational fight that no one would win. Doesn't mean it doesn't have a negative impact on him? IDK.
Re: God I hope you are right. part deux.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 20:39:18 UTC
Aha! YES. Okay. I totally see it now. Yep. Emotional Blackmail. Ugh. Yes. Oh, Dean. You poor little codependent wreck of a human being. Why do I love you so?
Also, I had a feeling you were aware of all the stuff backgrounding Dean's attitude. Just checking! Hahaha!
Re: God I hope you are right. part deux.amonitrateNovember 4 2012, 21:06:34 UTC
YEAH, I probably should have been clearer about that given, idk, the often contentious and bashing way this stuff can be framed. I was just interested in one slice of what was going on in this post and sort of assumed the audience would know I am like, clinically incapable of not feeling Dean's feelings without even trying. I think I tend to forget to foreground some of the context when it comes to Dean in posts like this because it's right there very present for me; whereas when I talk about Sam and Cas's behavior I tend to dissect from the outside in and so it gets framed a little more balanced maybe. IDK! I think Dean has a wholle bunch of perfectly understandable reasons for being a giant ball of anger right now, but some of those reasons are irrational and unfair, and some of them are fair, and some of them are somewhere in between. But I also don't think a person's feelings can be "wrong." Like, their actions towards another person, how they act on those feelings, can be destructive, but even when they're totally irrational I think it's really beside the point to say someone's feelings are wrong. So that's not what I'm intending to do with Dean here.
I haven't really discussed how I think Sam and Dean are constantly setting each other off this season -- I was pretty one sided here, because I was trying to get at one particular point. I really love how their back and forth is nuanced and carries such a weight of all the previous experiences.
Anyway. Yeah. Sam's done his share of emotional blackmail over the course of this show (oh dear god, making Dean responsible for killing him if he "goes bad" in season 2, that was some fucked up shit), but right now Dean's the one riding that horse over the cliff more than Sam is, even if Sam's not reacting in like, picture perfect fashion to everything himself.
Re: God I hope you are right.amonitrateNovember 4 2012, 20:03:32 UTC
ahaha. I tend to not get overly attached to my own speculation most of the time, which is lucky I guess. I'm easily pleased by this show.
And while Benny definitely got some closure in that ep, I don't know if his struggle to come to terms with who he is is quite over.
Oh yeah, I don't think that Benny is totally over everything or even totally adjusted back to the world, just that I guess I see more overall stability somewhere in Benny. I could be totally wrong about this! But I think it feels like Benny is more overtly aware of the need to re-adjust, whereas Dean seems to think it's a matter of sticking to how he is right now? Or maybe that Dean doesn't really feel he can adjust, this is just how he is now. I don't think I articulated that well though.
I guess I don't see this stuff as rehashing or redundant. I think they explore different angles on this stuff, revisiting themes from different perspectives. Cas's betrayal wasn't the same as Ruby's betrayal, for example, even if it's "character I trust has hidden agenda and lies a lot about it" in both cases. And I don't even think the going to hell and back thing is redundant, to be perfectly honest, in the scope of this show and what it's tackling. Going-to-hell-and-back plays completely different narrative and characterization and thematic roles in the cases of John, Dean, and Sam, imo.
But the fact that Benny still has a few open wounds doesn't mean he's not capable of helping Dean
Yeah, I think this is what I'm trying to get at when I'm saying that Benny is maybe adjusting back to the world better than Dean, and might play the role of talking to Dean about it, because he might be the only one who could get through to Dean about it. I think I took that scene between Dean, Sam and Benny and ran with it, basically, because I loved the note that Benny was surprised that Sam didn't know about him, and (I think??) like you said, Benny recognized that whatever was going on, it was hard for Dean to deal with.
Maybe there's something of a mirror in Benny for Dean. A way for Dean to find the good in himself again, by finding the good in Benny.
Maybe? IDK yet. Maybe a model for having struggled through something really really hard to do and made that change at one point, been successful at it? I think at this point potentially all Dean's really going to see is that Benny was a danger ultimately to Andrea, the way Dean feels he was a danger to Lisa, but maybe gradually.
since last season, Sam's kinda moved beyond all that. Skipped ahead of Dean somehow. I'm not saying Sam's got no issues left, but it's definitely not season 2 anymore.
Well, I don't think he's skipped ahead so much as his personal journey has been on a different timetable from Dean's. Like I was saying in a comment above, Sam spiraled downward and hit bottom a lot quicker -- in season 4 -- for a variety of reasons, including personality/emotional style, family role, external circumstances, Dean going to hell, etc... whereas I think Dean's journey has been more gradual and slow-burn in its personal destructiveness. Sam's dive basically took place over season 4 and then he pulled himself out of it in season 5, where Dean's been on a sort of up and down track since late season 1 but has never quite gone into free-fall. Yet. I think the differences there track the differences in their personalities and lives, you know?
Maybe without that struggle to keep Sam in the light anymore, Dean felt like there was little keeping him there anymore. Maybe he's found a replacement in Benny.
Yeah, I think Dean probably felt needed/useful when he could play the role of convincing Sam that Sam wasn't going to go darkside/evil, and now that Sam doesn't need that because Sam doesn't have that level of self-doubt and self-hatred anymore, Dean's at a loss, and has been since maybe season 5. But I don't think Benny is a replacement.
Re: God I hope you are right.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 20:55:44 UTC
Cas's betrayal wasn't the same as Ruby's betrayal, for example, even if it's "character I trust has hidden agenda and lies a lot about it" in both cases. And I don't even think the going to hell and back thing is redundant, to be perfectly honest,
I'm with you as far as Cas vs Ruby. They were very different story arcs. But Sam's Hell story arc is just never going to sit well with me no matter how different it was from Dean's.
at this point potentially all Dean's really going to see is that Benny was a danger ultimately to Andrea, the way Dean feels he was a danger to Lisa
Hmm. Interesting. I didn't think of that.
"Skipped ahead" is a simplification. You're right.
I don't think he's skipped ahead so much as his personal journey has been on a different timetable from Dean's. Like I was saying in a comment above, Sam spiraled downward and hit bottom a lot quicker -- in season 4 -- for a variety of reasons, including personality/emotional style, family role, external circumstances, Dean going to hell, etc... whereas I think Dean's journey has been more gradual and slow-burn in its personal destructiveness.
All true things!
And when I say Benny is a replacement, I don't mean he's replacing Sam entirely, but just that Dean has maybe found in helping him, and essentially resurrecting him, a way to replace the way saving Sam (tm) helped him feel grounded in something good.
Re: God I hope you are right.amonitrateNovember 4 2012, 21:16:23 UTC
What doesn't sit well with you about Sam's hell arc?
And when I say Benny is a replacement, I don't mean he's replacing Sam entirely, but just that Dean has maybe found in helping him, and essentially resurrecting him, a way to replace the way saving Sam (tm) helped him feel grounded in something good.
Oh, I guess I don't see that in Dean's resurrection of Benny at all. I think it had nothing to do with helping Benny or in any way similar to Saving Sam. It was because that's what he agreed to do, and Dean stands by that kind of thing, especially since I think he and Benny became friends/brothers in arms in Purgatory. I do think there's something new with his relationship to Benny. With Sam, Dean's always had trouble feeling on equal ground for a variety of reasons, mostly with how John raised them and Dean being made responsible for Sam, feeling like he had to be brave for Sammy etc. That scene with Gordon Walker about his game face. I don't think that's ever completely gone away, even when they have been on their most equal terms.
And with Cas, who seems like he was basically Dean's first close non-family friend, I think Dean tried to treat them as equals but Cas felt *he* had to protect *Dean* -- so again the dynamic is never entirely equal, at least not yet. Cas's relationship to Dean has a lot in common with Dean's relationship to Sam, actually. LOLOL.
Anyway, my point is that I think Benny is one of the first people Dean feels on really equal footing with as a friend. They don't have any advantages over one another, they don't feel the need to protect one another -- not in the non-reciprocal way Dean feels towards Sam or Cas feels towards Dean. They had each other's back. So I dont' think Benny really replaces anyone, I think Benny is his own new thing as far as Dean's relationships go.
Re: God I hope you are right.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 21:47:30 UTC
All good points! Although I'm still not sure. There was the way they juxtaposed the scene in purgatory of Dean watching Benny save Cas with the scene where Benny asks Dean why he saved him. It seemed to imply that not only was Dean keeping up his end of the deal because he's a man of his word, but also because he felt Benny had proved himself somehow, that he had done this unselfish act of saving the angel that was more of a danger/impediment to his escape than anything. And in that moment I think Dean saw the good in him that perhaps Benny had a hard time seeing. I know it's under very different circumstances, but it did remind me of Dean's way of seeing the good in Sam back when he was doomed to turn evil.
Anyways. I think I just need to see more of their dynamic in action, in order to really sus it out.
Anyway, my point is that I think Benny is one of the first people Dean feels on really equal footing with as a friend. They don't have any advantages over one another, they don't feel the need to protect one another -- not in the non-reciprocal way Dean feels towards Sam or Cas feels towards Dean.
Definitely! I think this is going to be key! This plays into what I was saying earlier about Benny being a mirror for Dean too.
Re: God I hope you are right.amonitrateNovember 4 2012, 22:12:57 UTC
Well, I think that scene to me meant that Dean trusts Benny and the root of their deeper relationship probably has something to do with Dean seeing that Benny saved Cas's life when he really didn't have to. If Cas had bit it in a fight, that benefits Benny because they will be safer and have a better chance of getting out of Purgatory. I'm just not seeing how it has to do with Benny replacing Sam as "Dean feels the need to save someone"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. I guess I don't see Benny saving Cas as either a "good" act or a "bad" one?
I don't think Dean saw Benny as evil before that moment, and then saw the potential for good in that moment, personally. I think it was more about friendship and loyalty and Benny being willing to save someone Dean cared about just because Dean cares about him? Just like, I really didn't ever see Dean as "seeing the good in Sam back when he was doomed to turn evil" because I don't think Dean ever saw it as Sam being doomed to turn evil in the first place. Dean just saw his brother, not the monster that Sam was afraid he was going to be because of what was being done *to* him? I just don't think it's ever been about good/bad for Dean when it comes to the people he loves or cares about.
You might be right about how Benny might be used as a mirror for Dean. I'm just not... I don't know. I don't think the show really buys into this good/bad person dichotomy, so much as the struggle is to change behaviors once you know they are destructive and harmful. I guess I don't see that being about good or bad. A behavior might be destructive in one context and constructive in another, does that make the person good or bad as a person?
I think "Dean learns to see that he's not a bad person, that he's a good person after all" isn't what I'm seeing in the story right now, though I agree Benny could be a different kind of mirror.
It's basically established that Dean and Benny are each-other's post-purgatory sponsors. And It would be so bloody redundant to rehash the whole my-new friend-isn't-totally-evil-oh-wait-they-are :( scenario. But one would also think that sending one person to hell and then bringing them back would be plenty too. Sigh.
I think you're right to observe Benny not realizing until that moment at the end of 8.05 that Sam had no clue who he was, and understanding that the conversation Dean was about to have with Sam would not be an easy one. And while Benny definitely got some closure in that ep, I don't know if his struggle to come to terms with who he is is quite over. I definitely saw Benny echoing Dean in early season 4 after Cas had brought him back, wondering why anyone would bother saving him. But the fact that Benny still has a few open wounds doesn't mean he's not capable of helping Dean, just as Dean's always been there for Sam even while he was weighed down by a ton of his own shit.
In many ways, I think Benny is exactly what Dean needs right now. A fighter like himself, stoic and snarky and filled with existential angst. And a REAL monster. Maybe there's something of a mirror in Benny for Dean. A way for Dean to find the good in himself again, by finding the good in Benny.
Because he can't really do that with Sam at this point. since last season, Sam's kinda moved beyond all that. Skipped ahead of Dean somehow. I'm not saying Sam's got no issues left, but it's definitely not season 2 anymore. We don't have Sam angsting about going dark-side anymore, and Dean focused on keeping his brother on the side of light.
MORE SPECULATION! Maybe without that struggle to keep Sam in the light anymore, Dean felt like there was little keeping him there anymore. Maybe he's found a replacement in Benny.
In any case, as you said, the lines of communication between Sam and Dean are pretty darn staticky right now. They've both just been through very dissimilar experiences, and are neither of them being very forthcoming about them, which just adds to the disconnect.
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There’s just no talking to someone who is telling you that your own feelings about your life are not just wrong, but erasing them outright and substituting their own. I really love how that scene contrasts with the scene in late season 1 between Sam and Dean, with a Dean who is much more vulnerable to the idea of Sam leaving because he doesn’t feel he has any control over it.
While I agree Dean IS becoming more and more like John, I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam. I hope this isn't my Dean!girl bias, but I see Dean's attitude towards Sam wanting to quit stemming from those old abandonment issues, along with a not so healthy dose of denial. When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything.
I think in Dean's mind, when Sam abandoned hunting after 7.23, he also abandoned Dean in Purgatory. And for Sam to say that he's going to give it up for good, well, that's akin to saying he's going to give up being Dean's brother (by Dean's fucked up logic anyway). And Dean just can't accept that. Not in the "UNACCEPTABLE" army drill sergeant kind of way, but in the hurts-too-much-to-even-consider kind of way.
Also, Season 1 Dean had fresh memories of being separated from his College-going brother. It made sense that losing Sam to that life again was something Dean could imagine. In that way, Dean was actually less vulnerable, since he was actually able to at least see the possibility of Sam leaving. But now he's barely capable of that. Now that they have been hunting together for so long, it's become hard for Dean to see them do anything else. Not only that, but he's been through the heartache of having a home and family, and having it ripped away. He's learned the hard way that there's nothing else for them to do but be hunters. No other possibilities even exist in his head anymore.
I can understand why Dean's reaction would be interpreted as controlling, and maybe Sam sees it that way. But I also got the impression that Sam kinda understood that Dean is just in denial about it, and that's why Sam didn't lash back, why he just kinda let it go. Because he knew it wasn't really about Dean trying to control his life the way John used to. It was about Dean not being mentally capable of even considering that reality.
Am I working to hard to make Dean seem more sympathetic? ABSOLUTELY. Because that is my raison d'etre! Lol. And essentially, I wholeheartedly agree:
I don’t think the story is going to be about whether or not Dean is right to trust Benny the Vampirate at all. And it’s also why I think the found footage episode about the kids turned into werewolves is more about Dean than it is about Benny - the show might be showing Dean acting like a complete asshole to Sam but it’s never lost sight of why exactly Dean is behaving this way, either.
YES.
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First off, yeah, I didn't really get into where Dean's coming from here from his POV, or what's feeding his behavior toward Sam in this. Just that his behavior toward Sam in that particular scene was fucked up in a specific way.
I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam, I think what he said was a controlling thing to say. I dont' think he was necessarily aware of how controlling/manipulative it was, and I don't think it was a conscious attempt to control Sam. But I also don't think any of that negates that it's a type of emotional blackmail. That kind of thing doesn't need to be overtly conscious in order to be fucked up, you know? I don't think Dean can control Sam because I think Dean and Sam are equals in their power dynamic at this point. Dean can be enormously dysfunctional and codependent towards Sam, which was what was going on there. It's basically a form of gaslighting. I REJECT YOUR FEELINGS AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN.
And yeah I agree with you that it is coming from a place of feeling abandoned and a massive sense of denial. And I don't think Sam was totally spotless in some of the hunting-related interactions -- I chose to highlight this one exchange because I think it's probably the most fucked up, but Sam's framing of his own desire to leave hunting has gotten defensively offensive (lol, sorry, I'm struggling for words here) in the way he reframes what Dean finds value in as being value-less. I can't remember the specific dialog right now. But Sam's line about "you can hunt and not have to explain yourself to anyone" was a dig. One I'm kinda sympathetic to, but still. Sam's been passive-aggressive on a low level all throughout the season, it's just a harder thing to pinpoint I think because a lot of it has been in line delivery and body language (sighs, eyerolling) rather than outright dialog?
I think Sam's in a lot of denial about what Dean went through and how hard a time he's having coming back, but probably not as much denial as Dean's in right now about how IF HE SAYS LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU loud enough, Sam won't leave the family business.
When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything.
Yeah. I thnk this can be true and can also be emotionally blackmailing at the same time. Because he's erased Sam as a person with his own needs and life from the equation, there. He's basically saying "loving me means agreeing with me and remaining in this life with me because I can't understand that the two can be separate."
So yeah, I agre with you about where all of this is coming from. I maybe came off as not empathizing with Dean in this post, but that couldn't be less true! I totally empathize with where he's coming from. I'm just kinda trying to dissect his behavior from the outside, rather than from inside his head.
But I also got the impression that Sam kinda understood that Dean is just in denial about it, and that's why Sam didn't lash back, why he just kinda let it go.
Yeah, I do think Sam recognizes it for what it was. Doesn't make it any easier to deal with, I guess? I think he let it go because he recognized that was going to be a totally irrational fight that no one would win. Doesn't mean it doesn't have a negative impact on him? IDK.
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Also, I had a feeling you were aware of all the stuff backgrounding Dean's attitude. Just checking! Hahaha!
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I haven't really discussed how I think Sam and Dean are constantly setting each other off this season -- I was pretty one sided here, because I was trying to get at one particular point. I really love how their back and forth is nuanced and carries such a weight of all the previous experiences.
Anyway. Yeah. Sam's done his share of emotional blackmail over the course of this show (oh dear god, making Dean responsible for killing him if he "goes bad" in season 2, that was some fucked up shit), but right now Dean's the one riding that horse over the cliff more than Sam is, even if Sam's not reacting in like, picture perfect fashion to everything himself.
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And while Benny definitely got some closure in that ep, I don't know if his struggle to come to terms with who he is is quite over.
Oh yeah, I don't think that Benny is totally over everything or even totally adjusted back to the world, just that I guess I see more overall stability somewhere in Benny. I could be totally wrong about this! But I think it feels like Benny is more overtly aware of the need to re-adjust, whereas Dean seems to think it's a matter of sticking to how he is right now? Or maybe that Dean doesn't really feel he can adjust, this is just how he is now. I don't think I articulated that well though.
I guess I don't see this stuff as rehashing or redundant. I think they explore different angles on this stuff, revisiting themes from different perspectives. Cas's betrayal wasn't the same as Ruby's betrayal, for example, even if it's "character I trust has hidden agenda and lies a lot about it" in both cases. And I don't even think the going to hell and back thing is redundant, to be perfectly honest, in the scope of this show and what it's tackling. Going-to-hell-and-back plays completely different narrative and characterization and thematic roles in the cases of John, Dean, and Sam, imo.
But the fact that Benny still has a few open wounds doesn't mean he's not capable of helping Dean
Yeah, I think this is what I'm trying to get at when I'm saying that Benny is maybe adjusting back to the world better than Dean, and might play the role of talking to Dean about it, because he might be the only one who could get through to Dean about it. I think I took that scene between Dean, Sam and Benny and ran with it, basically, because I loved the note that Benny was surprised that Sam didn't know about him, and (I think??) like you said, Benny recognized that whatever was going on, it was hard for Dean to deal with.
Maybe there's something of a mirror in Benny for Dean. A way for Dean to find the good in himself again, by finding the good in Benny.
Maybe? IDK yet. Maybe a model for having struggled through something really really hard to do and made that change at one point, been successful at it? I think at this point potentially all Dean's really going to see is that Benny was a danger ultimately to Andrea, the way Dean feels he was a danger to Lisa, but maybe gradually.
since last season, Sam's kinda moved beyond all that. Skipped ahead of Dean somehow. I'm not saying Sam's got no issues left, but it's definitely not season 2 anymore.
Well, I don't think he's skipped ahead so much as his personal journey has been on a different timetable from Dean's. Like I was saying in a comment above, Sam spiraled downward and hit bottom a lot quicker -- in season 4 -- for a variety of reasons, including personality/emotional style, family role, external circumstances, Dean going to hell, etc... whereas I think Dean's journey has been more gradual and slow-burn in its personal destructiveness. Sam's dive basically took place over season 4 and then he pulled himself out of it in season 5, where Dean's been on a sort of up and down track since late season 1 but has never quite gone into free-fall. Yet. I think the differences there track the differences in their personalities and lives, you know?
Maybe without that struggle to keep Sam in the light anymore, Dean felt like there was little keeping him there anymore. Maybe he's found a replacement in Benny.
Yeah, I think Dean probably felt needed/useful when he could play the role of convincing Sam that Sam wasn't going to go darkside/evil, and now that Sam doesn't need that because Sam doesn't have that level of self-doubt and self-hatred anymore, Dean's at a loss, and has been since maybe season 5. But I don't think Benny is a replacement.
And yeah, agreed about the disconnect.
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I'm with you as far as Cas vs Ruby. They were very different story arcs. But Sam's Hell story arc is just never going to sit well with me no matter how different it was from Dean's.
at this point potentially all Dean's really going to see is that Benny was a danger ultimately to Andrea, the way Dean feels he was a danger to Lisa
Hmm. Interesting. I didn't think of that.
"Skipped ahead" is a simplification. You're right.
I don't think he's skipped ahead so much as his personal journey has been on a different timetable from Dean's. Like I was saying in a comment above, Sam spiraled downward and hit bottom a lot quicker -- in season 4 -- for a variety of reasons, including personality/emotional style, family role, external circumstances, Dean going to hell, etc... whereas I think Dean's journey has been more gradual and slow-burn in its personal destructiveness.
All true things!
And when I say Benny is a replacement, I don't mean he's replacing Sam entirely, but just that Dean has maybe found in helping him, and essentially resurrecting him, a way to replace the way saving Sam (tm) helped him feel grounded in something good.
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And when I say Benny is a replacement, I don't mean he's replacing Sam entirely, but just that Dean has maybe found in helping him, and essentially resurrecting him, a way to replace the way saving Sam (tm) helped him feel grounded in something good.
Oh, I guess I don't see that in Dean's resurrection of Benny at all. I think it had nothing to do with helping Benny or in any way similar to Saving Sam. It was because that's what he agreed to do, and Dean stands by that kind of thing, especially since I think he and Benny became friends/brothers in arms in Purgatory. I do think there's something new with his relationship to Benny. With Sam, Dean's always had trouble feeling on equal ground for a variety of reasons, mostly with how John raised them and Dean being made responsible for Sam, feeling like he had to be brave for Sammy etc. That scene with Gordon Walker about his game face. I don't think that's ever completely gone away, even when they have been on their most equal terms.
And with Cas, who seems like he was basically Dean's first close non-family friend, I think Dean tried to treat them as equals but Cas felt *he* had to protect *Dean* -- so again the dynamic is never entirely equal, at least not yet. Cas's relationship to Dean has a lot in common with Dean's relationship to Sam, actually. LOLOL.
Anyway, my point is that I think Benny is one of the first people Dean feels on really equal footing with as a friend. They don't have any advantages over one another, they don't feel the need to protect one another -- not in the non-reciprocal way Dean feels towards Sam or Cas feels towards Dean. They had each other's back. So I dont' think Benny really replaces anyone, I think Benny is his own new thing as far as Dean's relationships go.
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Anyways. I think I just need to see more of their dynamic in action, in order to really sus it out.
Anyway, my point is that I think Benny is one of the first people Dean feels on really equal footing with as a friend. They don't have any advantages over one another, they don't feel the need to protect one another -- not in the non-reciprocal way Dean feels towards Sam or Cas feels towards Dean.
Definitely! I think this is going to be key! This plays into what I was saying earlier about Benny being a mirror for Dean too.
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I don't think Dean saw Benny as evil before that moment, and then saw the potential for good in that moment, personally. I think it was more about friendship and loyalty and Benny being willing to save someone Dean cared about just because Dean cares about him? Just like, I really didn't ever see Dean as "seeing the good in Sam back when he was doomed to turn evil" because I don't think Dean ever saw it as Sam being doomed to turn evil in the first place. Dean just saw his brother, not the monster that Sam was afraid he was going to be because of what was being done *to* him? I just don't think it's ever been about good/bad for Dean when it comes to the people he loves or cares about.
You might be right about how Benny might be used as a mirror for Dean. I'm just not... I don't know. I don't think the show really buys into this good/bad person dichotomy, so much as the struggle is to change behaviors once you know they are destructive and harmful. I guess I don't see that being about good or bad. A behavior might be destructive in one context and constructive in another, does that make the person good or bad as a person?
I think "Dean learns to see that he's not a bad person, that he's a good person after all" isn't what I'm seeing in the story right now, though I agree Benny could be a different kind of mirror.
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