It seems unusual to come to a group of people I barely know for advice on a situation, but I trust Aeo's opinions and judgments of (most) people
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Re: disagreementshangchiFebruary 27 2003, 08:00:49 UTC
And I must disagree that there are emotional/psychological circumstances for which a person is not responsible for their actions. Now, if she's suffering a physical disorder that you can ascribe her actions to, then she needs to get that treated. But, for the most part, people ARE responsible for their actions and need to take responsibility for their decisions, which is what I believe Aingael wants to do here.
She may, indeed, love him more than she's ever loved anyone else, but it is not the "complete" love she thinks it is. Part of the problem has to do with her love, or the lack of love, for herself. Without self-respect, self-regard, self-love, a person can't really love another in a constructive way.
12 years of living with a woman who said she loved me, yet mentally tortured and tormented me, and 6 years of seeking professional counseling, going to support groups, and seeking medical help for her, convinced me that people do what they do because the underlying reason is because they WANT to do it, even when it causes them and the people involved intense grief and pain. Now, it may take a lot of time before they can come to an understanding of why they do what they do, but the first step for any individual to achieve change and growth is to accept that fact that we all do what we want to do and are capable of being responsible for our decisions, and capable of making different decisions.
Once a person admits that they are the primary cause of their own problems, then it takes time and effort to put different decisions into practice. Most people believe that solutions to their problems should be easy, but far from it. Most people have gotten so used to making bad decisions that they can hardly do anything else. Makeing the right decisions takes dedication, devotion, and lots of practice.
But it has to start with taking resonsibility for our decisions, and if we're sick, for our own ultimate cure. If an individual doesn't see this, then that person will be making excuses for what they do their entire life, and nothing will change; they will simply get more experienced at making elaborate excuses.
That's my opinion for what it's worth.
The Tao Te Ching says:
"Not knowing is true knowledge. Presuming to know is a disease. First realize you are sick; then you can move toward health.
"The Master is her own physician. She has healed herself of all knowing. Thus she is truly whole."
Re: ClarificationshangchiFebruary 27 2003, 09:55:54 UTC
I do think we agree, with a bit of clarification.
I wasn't saying that her "lack of love" was the reason she does what she does. If she didn't care about Aeo, she wouldn't be concerned about hurting him. I'm simply trying to guide her towards the sort of self-examination it requires to see what we do and don't understand about ourselves. For instance, as long as she believes she loves him "completely", she will continue to reject information that may be inconsistent with her belief system, though it may be the key to understanding herself.
For instance, if she comes to understand that her love isn't what she thinks it is, then she can begin to examine what love really is. When she finds that she can't really love totally and "completely" until she loves herself, then she can begin to take steps to help herself towards healing and understanding.
You're right, it's more than simply choosing or not choosing actions, but also understanding the urges that come with those actions, and making decisions to correct actions, and practicing those actions until they become the default action.
When a baby learns to walk, it's hard. The baby feels unsteady and if the baby falls, the baby gets hurt. Can you imagine a baby saying: "Gee, walking sucks. It's hard to do and everytime I fall down, I get hurt. I think I'm going to stick to crawling. Yea, that's what I'll do. I'll crawl everywhere. No more walking for me."
Crawling is natural for most babies. It feels unnatural to walk. But we do what feels unnatural for a while, and after a while, all we know how to do is walk. Can you imagine crawling anywhere now? But there was a time when it's probably all you or I wanted to do.
It takes a lot of strength to face the fact our assumptions may be flawed. She needs to see that her basic assumptions; her belief-system about herself, is flawed, and that her actions are, as you say, just a symptom of something deeper and more foundational. She's asking the question: "Why do I hurt this person when I love him so much?" when the fact is her assumptions about love are flawed. It's not that she doesn't love him, she just doesn't love him, or herself, the way she thinks she does. This is the first step towards a real understanding of the dynamics behind what she does and the first step on the path she needs to take.
She may, indeed, love him more than she's ever loved anyone else, but it is not the "complete" love she thinks it is. Part of the problem has to do with her love, or the lack of love, for herself. Without self-respect, self-regard, self-love, a person can't really love another in a constructive way.
12 years of living with a woman who said she loved me, yet mentally tortured and tormented me, and 6 years of seeking professional counseling, going to support groups, and seeking medical help for her, convinced me that people do what they do because the underlying reason is because they WANT to do it, even when it causes them and the people involved intense grief and pain. Now, it may take a lot of time before they can come to an understanding of why they do what they do, but the first step for any individual to achieve change and growth is to accept that fact that we all do what we want to do and are capable of being responsible for our decisions, and capable of making different decisions.
Once a person admits that they are the primary cause of their own problems, then it takes time and effort to put different decisions into practice. Most people believe that solutions to their problems should be easy, but far from it. Most people have gotten so used to making bad decisions that they can hardly do anything else. Makeing the right decisions takes dedication, devotion, and lots of practice.
But it has to start with taking resonsibility for our decisions, and if we're sick, for our own ultimate cure. If an individual doesn't see this, then that person will be making excuses for what they do their entire life, and nothing will change; they will simply get more experienced at making elaborate excuses.
That's my opinion for what it's worth.
The Tao Te Ching says:
"Not knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize you are sick;
then you can move toward health.
"The Master is her own physician.
She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus she is truly whole."
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(The comment has been removed)
I wasn't saying that her "lack of love" was the reason she does what she does. If she didn't care about Aeo, she wouldn't be concerned about hurting him. I'm simply trying to guide her towards the sort of self-examination it requires to see what we do and don't understand about ourselves. For instance, as long as she believes she loves him "completely", she will continue to reject information that may be inconsistent with her belief system, though it may be the key to understanding herself.
For instance, if she comes to understand that her love isn't what she thinks it is, then she can begin to examine what love really is. When she finds that she can't really love totally and "completely" until she loves herself, then she can begin to take steps to help herself towards healing and understanding.
You're right, it's more than simply choosing or not choosing actions, but also understanding the urges that come with those actions, and making decisions to correct actions, and practicing those actions until they become the default action.
When a baby learns to walk, it's hard. The baby feels unsteady and if the baby falls, the baby gets hurt. Can you imagine a baby saying: "Gee, walking sucks. It's hard to do and everytime I fall down, I get hurt. I think I'm going to stick to crawling. Yea, that's what I'll do. I'll crawl everywhere. No more walking for me."
Crawling is natural for most babies. It feels unnatural to walk. But we do what feels unnatural for a while, and after a while, all we know how to do is walk. Can you imagine crawling anywhere now? But there was a time when it's probably all you or I wanted to do.
It takes a lot of strength to face the fact our assumptions may be flawed. She needs to see that her basic assumptions; her belief-system about herself, is flawed, and that her actions are, as you say, just a symptom of something deeper and more foundational. She's asking the question: "Why do I hurt this person when I love him so much?" when the fact is her assumptions about love are flawed. It's not that she doesn't love him, she just doesn't love him, or herself, the way she thinks she does. This is the first step towards a real understanding of the dynamics behind what she does and the first step on the path she needs to take.
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