OotP Chapter 32 - Out of the Fire

[quartertofive]

Harry rushes out of the exam to the infirmary, looking for professor McGonagall, but she's been trasferred to St. Mungos. The next step is to grab Ron and Hermione, inform them of Sirius alleged capture, override any attempts at rational thought or common sense on their parts, and start planning

Comments

[cadesama]

You know, even panicked, Harry tries. He goes for McGonagall, an Order member who he actually trusts and who hasn't recently thrown anything at him. If Hagrid'd been there, he probably would have tried him, too. He doesn't want to be reckless, or to play the hero. It's no fault of his that he has no reliable support system at Hogwarts, or any means of contacting the Order on his own. And dude, how huge an oversight is that? Even if Harry's not a member of the Order, he's supposedly under their protection. What kind of bodyguard doesn't give the person he's guarding a phone number?

Again, I find Hermione's arguments specious. Why would they have heard about Voldemort getting into the Ministry? He could easily kill everyone there if he chose (Aurors included), and Hogwarts doesn't have any means of instant communication with the outside world. And they don't even come close to having enough information about any situation to judge where Sirius is, why he's kept inside, or why Voldemort would want him. They just don't have

[cadesama]

You know, even panicked, Harry tries. He goes for McGonagall, an Order member who he actually trusts and who hasn't recently thrown anything at him. If Hagrid'd been there, he probably would have tried him, too. He doesn't want to be reckless, or to play the hero. It's no fault of his that he has no reliable support system at Hogwarts, or any means of contacting the Order on his own. And dude, how huge an oversight is that? Even if Harry's not a member of the Order, he's supposedly under their protection. What kind of bodyguard doesn't give the person he's guarding a phone number?I totally agree. Harry wasn't really reckless here. He tried his best to find out it his vision was real, he even tried Snape, and went to the ministry after everything else failed. And I agree that the order should have left Harry some way to communicate with them, how could they leave him and the others completely at Umbridge's mercy? Well, I admit that they probably didn't think McGonagall will be attacked and out of Hogwarts (they usually don't think at

[darkeyedwolf]

When exectly did Harry tried to save people when it wasn't needed?

Well, he stayed behind in the second task to make sure all the hostages were rescued, but he honestly thought something horrible would happen to them if no one came. I agree that Hermione's comment was badly timed -- he *does* want to keep everyone safe, but like he said himself, Hermione didn't seem to have a problem with it when she was the one in trouble.

[cadesama]

Even with the Second Task, I don't think there's any reasonable way for the Champions to have known the hostages would all be safe. The First Task was dragons and however many safeguards they said they had, they were still endagering the lives of all the Champions, as well as the audience. Harry shouldn't have believed that the hostages would be killed as part of the Task, but it's naive to say that they were perfectly safe.

And I still think Hermione's looking at it from the wrong direction. It's not about saving people -- it's about the world being utterly untrustworthy and dangerous.

[cadesama]

And I still think Hermione's looking at it from the wrong direction. It's not about saving people -- it's about the world being utterly untrustworthy and dangerous.I think that one of the point where the differences between Harry and his friends are shown - they just haven't seen the things he did. They didn't see the visions Harry saw, they didn't see Cedric being murdered or Voldermot comes back, they didn't have to face a month a long with the Dursleys reliving their worst moments with no one there to help. Even though they have been with Harry for some of the things, they can still pretend that the world is safe, that the adults can be trusted completely and so on. For Harry there are no illusions. He knows he needs to rely on himself (and he always does, the order and Dumbledore fail in being there for him again and again, he knows that bad things happen and knows that his world is not a nice and safe place. It never has been. I hope this issue will be discussed more in the next books (the growing differences between Harry and

[cadesama]

And I agree that the order should have left Harry some way to communicate with them, how could they leave him and the others completely at Umbridge's mercy? Well, I admit that they probably didn't think McGonagall will be attacked and out of Hogwarts (they usually don't think at all, actually), but still they knew that Umbridge will stop at nothing and should have leave Harry a way to commuincate, especially if they have a safe way.

Hell, even without Umbridge, Harry should have been equipped with personal means to contact the Order. He's got a knack for getting into trouble at the end of the year, and an enemy who has already kidnapped him out from under the noses of his protector once. It's arrogant for the Order to think that as long as the pay attention that's all the protection Harry needs.

It looks like the only reason for this part is to give Harry another reason to feel guilty later.

Well, it also highlights Hermione's tendency toward arm-chair psychology which is neither very accurate, nor useful in the situation.

I

[cadesama]

Really, the Order itself is to blame for having absolutely no system in place to deal with crises around HarryYeah, it seems that they just keep trusting that things will go well, even when there are a lot of reasons to expect troubles. I mean after Umbridge attacked Hagrid and McGonagall, she might have gone after Harry even if all of this never happened. What were they thinking when they did nothing to assure his safety? Dumbledore really gets to me. While he sacrifised Harry's childhood, happines and emotional well being for what he claim was stronger protection, he keeps putting him in danger by either indifference or neglagence. Honestly, I don't think should even want to become a member in the order, what have they even done? We only know on two tasks they were doing-keep Harry safe and keep the prophecy safe. They failed at both. The death eaters manage to get into the department of mystery, Harry had to protect himself against the dementors, keeping important information from Harry ended in a tragedy and there's wasn't anyone

[cadesama]

Oh, man, I wouldn't want to be in the Order either. They're thoroughly disorganized and incompetent. They're almost worst than useless. I wouldn't want to be with the DEs 'cause they're just about as bad (and, uh, evil). From what I can tell, the goblins are the smartest ones around. Independent from the corrupt political forces of the WW, supposedly oppressed, and yet the most powerful force in the WW since they have complete financial control. The goblins rock, and I'd be on their team if they'd take me.

I honestly think that everything they risked by going against the ministry in forming the order wasn't worth it. They gained nothing.The only thing I can see of value in the Order as it currently stands, is that they've managed to ferret out who is too loyal to Fudge to be useful in the war. It'll be a lot easier to get the right people into power once he's ousted because of that. But yeah, I hope the next Minister is an ally of the Order, not a puppet, because I think the Ministry could do more good independently. The

[cadesama]

The only thing I can see of value in the Order as it currently stands, is that they've managed to ferret out who is too loyal to Fudge to be useful in the war. It'll be a lot easier to get the right people into power once he's ousted because of that.
I'm not sure that being too loyal to Dumbledore is much better. Dumbledore may not be as corrupted and stupid as Fudge, but the fact that people in the order just did what ever Dumbledore said is best, without thinking for themselves was just as damaging. We know what it did to Harry

[cadesama]

Well, there are also the people like Amelia Bones who didn't join up in the Order, but ended up making it pretty clear that they aren't among Fudge's toadies. Those are more the people I mean than actual Dumbledore loyalists.

I really don't like the way the adults left things with Harry, either. They all do seem inclined to make big gestures like those make up for everything, but not do the simple day-to-day relationship/bonding with Harry that could actually make a difference in his life.

However, a while ago I had a revelation that gives me hope about the summer for HBP. We know that JKR is using the opening that she originally tried to use for the first and second books, which features some form of James and Lily's death. Given that the previous device Rowling has used to allow an alternate POV in the introduction was a dream of Harry's in GoF, I'm thinking she'll do it again. Which means that Harry might be getting tortured by Voldemort through his dreams -- which would require immediate attention and Occlumency lessons

[woman_ironing]

sigh:: I wish Hermione had elaborated properly on what a "saving-people-thing" isHermione really messes up with her 'saving-people-thing' comment - which must seem like a betrayal to Harry - because her real point is valid: that Voldemort is tricking Harry, that V. knows if Harry thinks Sirius is in danger he'll come to help him. Lucius and Bellatrix actually confirm this later in the DoM. Hermione's comment made me gasp the first time I read OotP, but it kind of seemed realistic, just the sort of clumsy thing someone would say in the stress of the moment. At the same time, as others have said already, it does show the gap between Harry's experience and that of his friends. That the thought could be in Hermione's head, that she could pass judgement on Harry in this way, at this moment

[cadesama]

because her real point is valid: that Voldemort is tricking Harry, that V. knows if Harry thinks Sirius is in danger he'll come to help him.

Oh yeah, that part is definitely valid. Hermione, and she doesn't have good track record on this type of thing, just manages to stuff her foot in her mouth. Although, given the way she says it, I'm not sure her original point was so simple. I think that point is in there, but I think she's got all these other confused ideas about Harry's motivation that she tries to voice at the worst possible moment, as well.

That the thought could be in Hermione's head, that she could pass judgement on Harry in this way, at this moment!

I'm almost on her side, actually. For all that I don't think anyone could really be rational in Harry's situation, and that I don't think Hermione would stand a chance if it was one of her parents, that doesn't mean rationality isn't worth anything in such a situation. Having someone who doesn't know what it's like, who's utterly on the outside can be very, very useful

[potter_phile]

Hermione really messes up with her 'saving-people-thing' comment

It made sense to me, and I'm inclined to agree with her. Granted, most of the adults in the series treat Harry like a fragile child, but how many times throughout the books could he have made his life easier it he'd 1) asked for help, 2) done what he was told, or 3) confided in someone? Sometimes he needs to just react, but a lot of the time, Harry needs to think first.

Harry, being rather brave and noble, tends to think that he is the only one who understands and the only one who can do the job.

Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it just makes things worse. A little logic and reason would serve Harry (and The Cause) better, rather than rushing in with wand blazing. We've had hints that this has occured to Harry in HBP.

[cadesama]

The point isn't so much that Hermione is wrong about Harry's inclination toward feeling he needs to run to the rescue, it is that this is the worst conceivable moment to mention such a thing. Criticizing someone for their good deeds (and no matter how Hermione prefaces the comment, that's what she's doing) is not the way to win someone over to your pov. It just isn't.

how many times throughout the books could he have made his life easier it he'd 1) asked for help, 2) done what he was told, or 3) confided in someone?

Almost none. He tried to get help in PS/SS, CoS, and here -- there was no help to be had. Confiding in someone is more what Lupin should have done in PoA, rather than Harry. There was no time to go for help when Sirius took Ron, and his time turner mission was Dumbledore-sponsored. GoF was another teacher-sponsored disaster. Which brings us to Harry confiding in Dumbledore in OotP, and I think the problem is (again) a teacher not confiding, rather than Harry. He could have done what he was told, true, but why

[potter_phile]

The point isn't so much that Hermione is wrong about Harry's inclination toward feeling he needs to run to the rescue, it is that this is the worst conceivable moment to mention such a thing.

I would disagree. He's about to run off to do something foolish - again. It's the perfect time to mention that he tends to leap before he looks.

Almost none. He tried to get help in PS/SS, CoS, and here -- there was no help to be had.You're correct in that there have been many times when the kids (esp. Harry) were meant to handle things on their own. But there were also many times when Harry could have confided in DD, Sirius, Hermione, etc. Harry's upbringing has led him to hold his feeling in, so he ends up torturing himself needlessly - for 5 books now

[cadesama]

I'm not saying that she shouldn't have said anything. But calling out your friend on his good deeds isn't going to get you anywhere. Which, hey, it didn't.

But there were also many times when Harry could have confided in DD, Sirius, Hermione, etc. Harry's upbringing has led him to hold his feeling in, so he ends up torturing himself needlessly - for 5 books now. :)

I disagree. Harry doesn't trust people, but they haven't proven themselves trustworthy, and there are very few instances where going to them would have produced results.

A natural extension of that is the feeling that 'if he doesn't act, no one else will.' This is wrong and dangerous.

Well, except that Harry has been proven correct 99% of the time. It's obviously dangerous. But, again, my point is that Hermione is approaching it from the wrong angle merely by calling it a "saving-people-thing", as a opposed to calling it a "paranoid-don't-trust-the-world-thing".

Respectfully, I don't think you can argue that Hermione was wrong even though she turned out to be