the art of having fun
haha that sounds so cheesy. another day at color me mine. listening to two grown women battle it out "my sponge effect is more intricate than yours"...pure excitement lemme tell myself. i talked to brittney today. she is in "catttallliinna" she said she bought me something nifty. im going to guess a purse. i helped her buy her presents for everyone
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1. Your obviously an intelligent person (well spoken, clear concise thoughts, ...nice change of pace).
2. You obviously have given this topic a lot of thought and have already formed an opinion.
3. Your opinions are in direct opposition with my own.
It's been my experience that when two intelligent people with preconceived opinions engage in this sort of debate...well let's just say an agreement other than "to disagree" is seldom reached. I'm not into arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not into cramming my opinions down other's throats either. But if you're truly curious then I'd be happy to discuss this topic with you at great length...after all it has perked my interest. The conditions are simple: both parties must strive to handle things in a non-confrontational matter and bring an open mind to the table, setting personal pride aside. Otherwise, lets just leave it as it is. I'm not really interested in pursuing the mindless back and forth banter commonly associated with these types discussions. Before I give up the ghost, however, I would like to reply to your last post:
When I wrote "Love...is the very fiber that holds all of creation together" I was not speaking of love the emotion but rather of God himself. My guess is that you probably don't believe in God, and further you probably don't view the Bible as a credible source. Nonetheless, I think the following scripture will best sum up what I'm trying to say (and may provide a window for you to see into my thought pattern). Humor me:
1 John 4:7&8
7) Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8) Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Let's focus on the last 3 words specifically: God is Love. If we take this into account it becomes clear that my original post was just a clever (or cute) way of saying that love is a necessity in this world, and that God is an equally vital part of our existance. But this probably doesn't get you any closer because like love, you probably don't believe that God is real. If this is the case then your argument "...a metaphor like a "fiber" is border-line insulting to the idea. And how would it "hold creation together"? It's not REAL!"...still stands. Thousands of years of history have shown me that you can't prove that God exists. If you could everyone would already believe in Him. On the same token you can't disprove God either. If you could then nobody would believe in Him. I guess it's just one of those things where every one has to decide for themselves which side of the line they'll fall on.
It's true I can't prove to you that God exists. Instead, let me leave you with one of the many reasons why I think that God exists...and that the world was created by Him:
I am a mechanical engineer by profession. As an engineer it is my job to design new products for the consumer market. Basically, any product ever used came from the mind of some engineer. Think about it. From the simplest things like a toothbrush or aluminum can to the most complex devices such as supersonic aircraft or a computer's processor...they all have one thing in common: a designer. It is for this reason that I believe this universe must also have a designer. I can't look at a tree, or a cell, or an atom, or the solar system, or the human eye without wondering who designed it. Who decided it would be that way? Who drew up those plans? I can't believe that some thing as complicated as the human nervous system or something as intricate as the very physics that govern this earth all happened by chance. Because of some big bang? That concept flies in the face of everything I've ever touched, smelled, seen, and heard. It flies in the very face of science itself!
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I'm going to be honest and say that an intellectual discussion is probably one of my FAVORITE things to do, with somebody who has oppssite or similar ideas as my own. Often times I find myself playing Devil's Advocate, and in a discussion like the one I assume we would have, thats a rather ironic title. I like to argue for the sake of arguing. I know that this is the only way to really test your ideas. Blind faith should be (and probably is) frowned upon.
As a rebuttal, allow me to excuse myself for being perhaps, too hasty, with my comment. I have read that passage and I know the point you are making, and I'll be honest and say that I considered that viewpoint as I was criticizing your statements "logical" flaw. I did so under the assumption that you either a.) only understood what you were saying on a base-level or b.) were quoting a cliche. Clearly, my assumption fails to hold water, as you were doing neither.
Throughout time there has always been the question as to the existence of a higher power. There's a reason it hasn't been answered. Neither side can prove the other wrong...in this sense faith is the major separation between you and me. No tangible proof FOR the Biblical story, and circumstantial evidence AGAINST. Now, I wouldn't call myself an atheist; however, i once was one, so if you'll allow me to indulge in the atheist's frame of reference, maybe I can give you some insight. An atheist lives his life solely in the real...ultimately, a material life (something we can both agree is illogical). An atheist typically abides by Occam's Razor, which states that the answer with the shortest amount of assumptions is probably the correct one. Take, for instance, a tree falling during the night. The question is, what made the tree fall? Was it the storm the night of the tree's untimely death, or was it 2-foot tall aliens from Mars? According to Occam's Razor, the latter can be excluded because it is based on a variety of assumptions, ranging from '2-foot tall aliens exist' to '2-foot aliens coming to knock down the tree'. Apply this parallel to the Creation Argument. How many assumptions does it take for the Big Bang Theory, and how many does it take for Creation? By my count, more for the latter.
You also make a compelling argument, about design. Actually, this is commonly called the Argument From Design, stating that something is so complicated that it had to have been created, etc etc. The eye is often the topic of this area. To this, I respond: If an eye was SO unlikely to have evolved naturally (thus needing a creator), then arent the chances of a Being that not only created that particular eye, but also an entire UNIVERSE complete with sentient beings a million times MORE unlikely? Unfortunately, this boils down to the old "Well, who created the creator?" and we're back to square one.
Also, I didn't mean for my argument to exclude things that transcend reality as null. Certainly for someone like me, this may seem strange, because the only justification for things like Love and Morality and Logic and Infinity is, naturally, a force behind that "light at the end of the tunnel" (vis a vis, God). Whether or not these things that I have mentioned are all a creation of the mind (which in itself transcends reality) is for another time.
As I mentioned earlier, I've argued both sides of this coin, and have "won" arguments on either side. I could go into the logical flaws of the non-existence of God and I could go into the logical flaws of the existence of God. Both sides are quite compelling, and its always a breathe of fresh air to find someone who feels likewise.
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