Tag Set reopened

[hhertzof]

The tag set has been reopened for vetting. As it was unclear which problems should go in the form, the form will remain closed and all problems should be noted in the comments of this post

Comments

[jenn_calaelen]

The two fandoms nominated were Spiderman Ultimates and Marvel Ultimates. A lot of the characters nominated in Spiderman Ultimateverse did not appear in that series, but did appear in the wider Marvel Ultimates, so we decided to merge the fandoms rather than reject most of the characters.

Renaming the fandom would be a lot of work as all the characters would need to be manually re-associated, but if there is another name people agree on it can be done.

[dudski]

Given the characters nominated, I don't see how most of them would have been subject to rejection under Spider-Man (Ultimateverse).

Aaron, Ganke, Gwen, Jefferson, Jessica, Judge, Kate, Maria, Mary Jane, May, Miles, Rio, Tandy, and Ty - 14 of the 22 characters currently under "Marvel Ultimates" - are all inarguably valid Spider-Man (Ultimateverse) characters.

Of the remaining eight, none are primarily from Spider-Man titles, but Johnny made a huge number of appearances in Ultimate Spider-Man titles, Carol and Susan made more than a handful, Janet seems to have made a few, and Monica and Sam both appeared in UC:SM when Miles briefly teamed up with the Ultimates last year. The only characters who, as far as I can tell, have never appeared in an Ultimateverse Spider-Man title are Wanda and Pietro

[nomadicwriter]

If Character A has made 15 appearances in Ultimate Spider-Man titles and 200 appearances in Ultimateverse titles overall, offering them in a merged/umbrella fandom requires a significantly larger canon knowledge than offering them in the originally nominated fandom would have.That's an extremely good point. For instance, Johnny Storm has had a significant number of appearances in Ultimate Spider-Man, but prior to that he was one of the main cast in the Ultimate Fantastic Four comic. If the fandom is widened from Ultimate Spider-Man to including every single Ultimate Universe comic ever published, then somebody could quite reasonably request a story based on Johnny's role in Ultimate Fantastic Four - a comic that nobody actually nominated, and that people planning to offer to write Johnny in the Ultimate Spider-Man fandom are likely to be completely unfamiliar with

[penknife]

I think you're still under the misapprehension that Marvel Ultimates is an umbrella fandom including Ultimate Spider-Man. Ultimates is an individual title, like Ultimate Spider-Man; it's the Ultimateverse equivalent of the Avengers. If you want a wider fandom that icludes Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimates, you're going to have to go with something like Ultimateverse, Marvel Ultimate Universe, or Ultimate Marvel Comics.

But as people have explained, Ult Spider-Man and Ultimates are best separated, because the tones are extremely different, and many people may want to offer characters based on having read only one of these books.

[penknife]

Yeah, I think that is by far the best solution; I'm just saying, if they have to be merged into one fandom, it absolutely can't be called Marvel Ultimates. But, yeah, there are plenty of comic book titles set in the mainstream Marvel or DC universes that are nominated separately, so I don't see why these need to be merged.

[nomadicwriter]

With all respect, your reasoning for this merge contains several glaring factual inaccuracies, and the decision hence comes off nonsensical to anyone with actual familiarity with the fandoms in question. There is no "wider Marvel Ultimates". You seem to be treating "Marvel Ultimates" (a specific individual series within the wider Ultimate Universe) as synonymous with the whole of the Ultimate Universe. This is not correct.

To be clear: the wider fandom in this case is the Marvel Ultimate Universe. The nominated characters belong to two separate subfandoms: Marvel Ultimates (this is the Ultimate Universe version of the Avengers) and Ultimate Spider-Man. You cannot merge Ultimate Spider-Man into Marvel Ultimates, because it is not a subfandom of that series. They are separate parallel comics that take place in the same universe. It's the equivalent of merging Spider-Man into Avengers and calling the resulting blend of characters from two separate series "Avengers

[dayadhvam_triad]

There is no "wider Marvel Ultimates." Period. Spider-Man (Ultimateverse) is not a subset of Marvel Ultimates: they are separate parallel titles altogether. The commenters above have also explained in great detail how this is so.

Even if renaming the fandom is a lot of work, I would think that simple factual accuracy is a major and valid reason for doing so.

[pottedseafood]

With all due respect, since these two fandoms were conflated by mistake, it would seem to be more sensible to fix the error, not to tell participants their nominations were wrong or that they cannot understand their own fandoms.

[faithgrowsold]

Once more +1-ing everyone else comments here

[ladyshinkicker]

With all due respect, there is no such thing as "the wider Marvel Ultimates". That is not a thing which exists, because Marvel Ultimates is one title and Ultimate Spider-Man is a different title.

[rekallthegreat]

The lists should probably be broken up like this.

Ultimate Spider-Man
Aaron Davis (Ultimates)
Ganke Lee (Ults)
Gwen Stacy (Ults)
Jefferson Davis (Ultimates)
Jessica Drew (Ultimates)
Johnny Storm (Ultimates)
Judge (Ultimates)
Kate Bishop (Ultimates)
Maria Hill (Ultimates)
Mary Jane Watson (Ultimates)
May Parker (Ultimates)
Miles Morales (Ultimates)
Rio Morales (Ultimates)
Tandy Bowen (Ultimates)
Tyrone "Ty " Johnson (Ultimates)

Marvel Ultimates
Monica Chang (Ultimates)
Pietro Maximoff (Ultimateverse)
Sam Wilson (Ultimates)
Susan Storm (Ultimates)
Wanda Maximoff (Ultimateverse)
Carol Danvers (Ultimates)
Janet Pym (Ultimates)

Johnny Storm is the only one I'm not entirely sure of. Looking at his list of appearances though ( http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Jonathan_Storm_%28Earth-1610%29/Appearances ) he is in Ultimate Spider-Man quite a bit.

[boxlawyer]

One way to solve the Johnny Storm issue might be to just put him into both categories and disambiguate him? It's a bit late now to try and find the nominator(s) and find out what they intended, given that signups are meant to be in a few days, and so the additional tag while undesirable would solve the issue as to which series he belongs in.

[musesfool]

+1

I agree with this break out, and also agree that Johnny should be in Utimate Spider-man, since he spends quite a number of issues living with Peter and Aunt May (and also that is how he was listed last year, when Ultimate Spider-man was correctly separated from Ultimates, and I matched on Peter & Johnny).

[ketsundere]

Renaming the fandom would be a lot of work as all the characters would need to be manually re-associated

Er...

[pedanther]