I was commenting with astartexx on her post about it that they really missed a lot of opportunities in this episode to lay the groundwork for something deeper -- starting with a kid who wasn't a walking cliche.
It does make me wonder if her denial will make Dean even more reckless in his sleeping around in the (sub)conscious hope that he really will be leaving something behind.
starting with a kid who wasn't a walking cliche. do you mean mini-Dean was a walking cliche, or mini-Dean was the first kid on spn who wasn't? just curious, I'm not sure :)
mini-Dean was the first kid on spn who wasn't?LOL, no, I think the representation of children (and there have been quite a lot, haven't there?) has varied due to the abilities of the children cast. I mean, I enjoy this show (a lot) but it's not one I'd point to in terms of awesome character development and Kripke himself has mentioned how much Jared and Jensen do to make these real, 3 dimensional characters. I think Ben's example was particular egregious because there was never any effort to make Ben a real person with his own motivations and issues. Everything about him was designed to mirror Dean. The only scene that could be considered somewhat about Ben himself was the park one, and even there I think it says more about Dean, his childhood, and John than it does about Ben. Compare Ben to Michael in "Something Wicked" for example, who was also designed to mirror Dean
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I'm just going to live in a little world where the kid *is* his. *nods* me too. for exactly the reasons you say. It would be so much cooler is he was suddenly confronted with all of this, not necessarily looking for it, but.
and then yeah: what would it mean, both for him and for the kid? not only in the scope of one year to live, but forcing him to reevaluate his own family, and how he was raised, and if it was something he'd want for his own son.
ack. haha, this is the first time you've been mad at kripke? *g* i'm mad that they're not gonna bring ellen back. :(
also, did we learn knife girl's name already in this ep? i forget, since i was spoilered for it a while ago.
and: ;) YES. I am SO EXCITED that sam might fall in love with a representative of The Enemy. hahahhahahahha.
and lol, watch: i bet i bet i bet you'll start getting mad at kripke at regular intervals now. ;) once it starts, you can't stop it! i'm even starting to willingly meta this show, and i'd vowed so vigorously not to.
I'm actually glad it turned out this way. I do think the implications of Ben being Dean's son are interesting, but I actually don't think they have the available screen time to do it justice, and I'd rather not see the storyline half assed and fucked up. And Dean, you know... I think there's enough of a chance that a kid would make him give up hunting (at least temporarily) that it's not a practical plot twist because there goes your entire premise. You go from saving people, hunting things to working in a garage, raising a kid.
I agree that they didn't play the not-your-kid bit ambiguously, but I do think there's room for it to have been a lie. I also think the idea that Dean maybe wants a kid is significant. They've talked about leaving a legacy before, in terms of John, and I like that he's thinking about himself now. I like that he's thinking about all of this stuff, really, because I want to see how he processes it once he's saved, you know? I want to see what he does with all this once he's no longer doomed. It's going to be
( ... )
You go from saving people, hunting things to working in a garage, raising a kid. HEE! you're so awesome.
Yeah, I mean, I agree to an extent that it's not practical to have dean have a kid for certain, but... i just wish it had been more ambiguous, you know? but then again, who knows, maybe sometime in the future it will come up again? and dean will at least be able to reflect on the idea, or the potential of it.
like, yeah, it would be a drag to actually have him saddled with a real, live, kid, but... it would have been cooler, to me at least, if Lisa had been more standoffish and less convincing in her statements. Like, if she'd been all: I am a Single Mother and i want to keep it that way?
but i'm sure they'll revisit the notions of legacy and alienation from normailty again at some point. it's too rich of a subject to just drop. *hopes*
otoh- i don't want them to go too far down that road, because the logical end of it lands squarely in the territory of Sam and Dean getting a divorce and settling down (read: clear markers of
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So, let's see if I can put my brain back together after last night and say something useful here.
but i definitely wouldn't be averse to them exploring just exactly how non-normal their lives are a little bit more. :)
Hee!
I agree, I think they'll definitely hit on that stuff again. What's really interesting, possibly, is that, if we get to season four, Dean will turn thirty. I'm not sure what the writers would do with that, but I don't think it would be ooc for Dean to take a moment to re-evaluate. Not that I think he would definitely make changes in his life, but it's significant, I think. Like, the decisions you make regarding your life at thirty can't necessarily be explained away as useful stupidity or exuberance. At some point, you're making meaningful decisions that shape the rest of your life, and for Dean to have a moment where he feels like, this is it, if I choose to stay on this path, it's forever would be really interesting. Obviously, you know, it's not actually binding, but it's powerful psychological stuff, and I
( ... )
actually don't think they have the available screen time to do it justice well, I think they could have dealt with it the way they did the boys' relationship with John. John really wasn't in very many episodes, but the family ties were huge. I think it was doable while keeping the premise, I just think they were kinda lazy. there are a number of ways they could have justified Dean not settling down, the most obvious that comes to mind is that he doesn't want the kid getting attached when he believes he's got less than a year left to live. I don't see him wanting to put Ben through that heartbreak, given his own experience.
There is just way too much of Deanisms that are not believable. For one, Dean's mirrored behavior is not genetic....it's learned. So for me they took Ben way over the top. As for potenial, it still left alot of doors open to return here. I wonder if demon blood runs through the Winchester's veins....Was Mary truly 100 percent human? If so, how important will Ben be if he truly is Dean's son...hmmmmm.
Or Ben acting like the male figure mentor that's been hanging around the family that wasn't show or mentioned......but only the writers know for sure, LOL.......
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It does make me wonder if her denial will make Dean even more reckless in his sleeping around in the (sub)conscious hope that he really will be leaving something behind.
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do you mean mini-Dean was a walking cliche, or mini-Dean was the first kid on spn who wasn't? just curious, I'm not sure :)
and totally. someone should write a fic :) hee!
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and then yeah: what would it mean, both for him and for the kid? not only in the scope of one year to live, but forcing him to reevaluate his own family, and how he was raised, and if it was something he'd want for his own son.
ack. haha, this is the first time you've been mad at kripke? *g* i'm mad that they're not gonna bring ellen back. :(
also, did we learn knife girl's name already in this ep? i forget, since i was spoilered for it a while ago.
and: ;) YES. I am SO EXCITED that sam might fall in love with a representative of The Enemy. hahahhahahahha.
Tonight! squee!
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I never really get caught up in spn enough to get mad at Kripke. but he got me on this one *shakes fist*
nope, she's still knife-girl. but I was spoiled a while back too. wasn't everyone?
well, it'll probably be a week before I see it, haha. because cwtv.com takes a while to post the eps up.
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and lol, watch: i bet i bet i bet you'll start getting mad at kripke at regular intervals now. ;) once it starts, you can't stop it! i'm even starting to willingly meta this show, and i'd vowed so vigorously not to.
see what happens? Teh Pretty. it seduces.
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noooooooooooooo. j'accuse!
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I agree that they didn't play the not-your-kid bit ambiguously, but I do think there's room for it to have been a lie. I also think the idea that Dean maybe wants a kid is significant. They've talked about leaving a legacy before, in terms of John, and I like that he's thinking about himself now. I like that he's thinking about all of this stuff, really, because I want to see how he processes it once he's saved, you know? I want to see what he does with all this once he's no longer doomed. It's going to be ( ... )
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HEE! you're so awesome.
Yeah, I mean, I agree to an extent that it's not practical to have dean have a kid for certain, but... i just wish it had been more ambiguous, you know? but then again, who knows, maybe sometime in the future it will come up again? and dean will at least be able to reflect on the idea, or the potential of it.
like, yeah, it would be a drag to actually have him saddled with a real, live, kid, but... it would have been cooler, to me at least, if Lisa had been more standoffish and less convincing in her statements. Like, if she'd been all: I am a Single Mother and i want to keep it that way?
but i'm sure they'll revisit the notions of legacy and alienation from normailty again at some point. it's too rich of a subject to just drop. *hopes*
otoh- i don't want them to go too far down that road, because the logical end of it lands squarely in the territory of Sam and Dean getting a divorce and settling down (read: clear markers of ( ... )
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but i definitely wouldn't be averse to them exploring just exactly how non-normal their lives are a little bit more. :)
Hee!
I agree, I think they'll definitely hit on that stuff again. What's really interesting, possibly, is that, if we get to season four, Dean will turn thirty. I'm not sure what the writers would do with that, but I don't think it would be ooc for Dean to take a moment to re-evaluate. Not that I think he would definitely make changes in his life, but it's significant, I think. Like, the decisions you make regarding your life at thirty can't necessarily be explained away as useful stupidity or exuberance. At some point, you're making meaningful decisions that shape the rest of your life, and for Dean to have a moment where he feels like, this is it, if I choose to stay on this path, it's forever would be really interesting. Obviously, you know, it's not actually binding, but it's powerful psychological stuff, and I ( ... )
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well, I think they could have dealt with it the way they did the boys' relationship with John. John really wasn't in very many episodes, but the family ties were huge. I think it was doable while keeping the premise, I just think they were kinda lazy. there are a number of ways they could have justified Dean not settling down, the most obvious that comes to mind is that he doesn't want the kid getting attached when he believes he's got less than a year left to live. I don't see him wanting to put Ben through that heartbreak, given his own experience.
but *snerk* to working in a garage. :)
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Kimber
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Kimber
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