(geek thought) I've never really understood the Kobayashi Maru

[smurasaki]

For those out there who are not familiar with Star Trek's famous no-win scenario for Starfleet command-track cadets, the Kobayashi Maru is (in original continuity) a simulator scenario in which the cadet, as captain of a ship, must decide whether to enter the Neutral Zone and rescue a damaged civilian ship - violating the treaty in the process, or

Comments

[smurasaki]

Heck, I was worried it was just me. And, yes, the bridge officer test Troi took makes a hell of a lot more sense - as long as it doesn't get an attack of cheating computer syndrome should someone come up with a previously unforeseen solution that doesn't involve sacrificing someone. People can be really damn creative.

I've always found it weird that Star Trek was so enamored of this no-win test when, in practice, the Star Trek world is full of people who don't believe in no-win situations and they almost never actually come up in the shows or movies. Actually, I don't think they ever come up on that scale.

[smurasaki]

Strict is one thing, cheating to achieve a desired outcome quite another. As you point out, in the "real world" of Star Trek, people are damn good at coming up with a third option. I can't believe that they're less creative when being tested.

So, if they want to make sure the commanders are able to order people to their death when there's no other option... they might have to run the test a few times if they had a really creative candidate.

(Though there is still the odd disconnect between the simulations - which can be no-win or "can't save everyone" - and the reality that, oh, 90% of the time at least, involves the heroes coming up with a third option or a way to save everyone. It's like the testing is worse than reality in the Star Trek 'verse.)

[tekalynn]

I'm not as eloquent as Ami, so I'll just say that the Kobayashi Maru scenario has never made a damn lick of sense to me.

[smurasaki]

Well that makes at least four of us.

[foxinthestars]

You make very good points! There's also perhaps a subtext of "the Klingons are out to get you no matter what, appealing to reason or decency is useless with them, and they will do any and every nasty thing in order to kill you; here, have a taste of how that feels." During a certain period of in-universe history, I would wonder if that kind of hate-the-enemy indoctrination was what this was originally about, but as said history moves on it seems pretty dated. Although as years go by there's also the possibility that it serves no purpose other than as a traditional officially-sanctioned hazing ritual that the alumni running the place have a non-rational commitment to.

I also remember by contrast Wesley Crusher's "psych test" to get into the academy was a simulated "can't save everyone" situation. I forget if it was the same test for every candidate, or if that was specifically tailored for him, because they said his father had been the one left unsaved once upon a time...

[smurasaki]

Oh, yes, that's another really good explanation for it - though it works better in the original timeline, since the Kobayashi Maru was apparently designed by Spock in the new-movie timeline. As a bit of propaganda, hell, yeah, it makes sense. Or as hazing. (Though, either way, it makes Starfleet a bit less shiny.)

Wesley's test also stands in contrast because he had no idea it was a simulation. That's the only way the new explanation for the Kobayashi Maru test could work - you can only experience facing death if you, you know, actually think you're facing death. And, again, "can't save everyone" seems like much more sensible test. As long as, as I mentioned in my reply to Lost Angelwings, the computer doesn't start cheating if someone does outsmart the test. Which even in an "can't save everyone" test could certainly happen. Hell, there are times when it seems like people pulled that with reality.

[skjam]

Supposedly, that test was tailored to Wesley to stress him at his "wesk point", and off-camera the same was happening to the other candidates. Mind you, based on the weaknesses Wesley had actually *shown* up to that point, I would have had the attractive female candidate come into his room, start undressing, and proposition Wesley.

[smurasaki]

Ahahaha! Though I sometimes get the feeling half of Starfleet would cough up all kinds of classified information if you waved a hot member of their preferred sex at them.

[skjam]

It's been a while, but as I recall, in the original continuity it was also a "how does the command candidate react to failure?" test with the idea that anyone who's been through it is under an oath of silence about the exact circumstances.

I am minded of the Marissa Picard fanfics, where the Kobayahi Maru test had devolved into a "play till you die" video game, where people compared their survival times like top scores.

[smurasaki]

Heh, somehow the fanfic version seems likely.

Even if everyone's under an oath of silence, what happens if someone switches to command track after having already been a "crewman" on someone else's Kobayashi Maru simulation? (Never mind that in the new continuity Kirk got to take the damn thing three times. Ye gad, but there are a lot of problems with the Kobayashi Maru.

And it's still an odd choice for a "reaction to failure" simulation, since, if it were real, the candidate would have no reaction, being dead and all. And while seeing a potential commander's reaction to failure does seem important, at the academy doesn't seem like the right place for it. After all, they'd still serve on someone else's ship for some time and the test seems like it would have the problem of undercutting people's confidence if they really went the oath of silence route. But that could be my fatalism creeping in again.

[skjam]

Stephen Ratliff's Marissa stories are beautiful examples of Star Trek Mary Sue fiction (And inspired many beautiful MSTings.) Yeah, by the time of ST:TNG in Marissa's world, twelve year olds are allowed to take the Kobayashi Maru repeatedly, for fun and bragging rights. The only thing Mr. Ratliff got wrong there was having Marissa's high score be treated as a genuine and serious qualification for becoming a junior officer on the Enterprise.

[smurasaki]

Oh dear. Still, given the nature of the Kobayashi Maru, I can completely see it turning into a "who can live the longest" contest among cadets.

[auroramoveson]

I know I'm late to the party here, but I've been thinking on this one trying to figure out what sits wrong about the Kobayashi Maru, and I think I've finally got it

[smurasaki]

Starfleet spends an awful lot of time acting not like any military I'm familiar with. Not that I'm an expert or anything, but still, they've never seemed particularly like the military they theoretically are. I know, I know, it's the future. Or something.

Still, you've added yet another thing to the list of "things wrong with the Kobayashi Maru." And I dearly love your last potential response. :)

As for Kirk cheating, well, in the new continuity, he was going to get in big trouble for it...and then the plot happened. But the Kobayashi Maru isn't the equivalent of a final exam, it's a psych test. *frown* And now I've just puzzled myself as to what the proper response to cheating on a psych test - not to get a certain outcome psychologically speaking, but because you disagree with the test - should be. Because, while I agree that Kirk (in both universes) tends to be a pompous shit, I agree with him about the test being absolutely a cheat, itself. And I still don't know what (beyond "it's a psychological test") the damned thing