Romeward Bound

[silverwhistle]

Will be offline for most of the next couple of weeks, as I'm off down to Dad's and one of our wee Italian jaunts. Pisa and Florence again, and this time, Rome! I'll try not to get myself acclaimed Empress, or to shout: "He's not the real Pontifex Maximus! Accept no phoney Galilean substitutes!" Vaticanwards.

Comments

[syntinen_laulu]

Have a lovely time, both of you!

PS: your packet arrived, for which many many thanks. I shall have plenty to occupy my leisure time with for quite a while!

[silverwhistle]

Many thanks! We intend to visit Santa Croce in Florence (and Il Rubaconte, where I had a very good panino and ice-cream last year!). Not sure where we'll be dropped in Rome: if (as a neighbour suggests) it's near the Colosseum, we may head for San Clemente, with its Mithraic temple.

[syntinen_laulu]

Had never heard of it and have just looked it up. That looks amazing; if that's all you get to see you definitely won't have wasted your time!

Just a note: the name of Maria Macellaria, one of the donors of the 11th-century frescoes, means 'Maria of the Slaughterhouse'; 'macellus' in Latin ('macello' in Italian) meant a slaughterhouse or shambles. (And in fact in modern Italian slang 'Che macello!' means exactly the same thing as 'What a shambles!' in English.) So either Maria herself ran a slaughtering business important enough to be known by, or her father had.

[silverwhistle]

Rome disappointing. Drop-off was in the Vatican, so didn't see much at all I wanted to see. (Didn't go in St P's - ugly building like a stage-set, the Pope was at large, queues, security & c.). However, Santa Croce in Firenze and the Duomo in Pisa are fabulous! Pisa has St Renier (12C chap) on show, dressed in his original robe and with a silver face-mas. Santa Croce also has a nice (modern) silver reliquary bust of a mediæval Franciscan sister. Dad had terrific fun.

[myceliumme]

Duh? Recent popes were/are Polish (Galician?), German and latin American.

[silverwhistle]

Pontifex Maximus (Supreme Bridge-builder, i.e. between Earth and the gods) was a title of the High Priests of Rome, taken on by the Emperors. It's what the PM stands for on Roman coins. The title was then nicked by the Bishops of Rome, who claimed pseudo-imperial powers in the Middle Ages, especially after forging the so-called 'Donation of Constantine'. Jules referred to Christians as 'Galileans'. I acknowledge no Pontifex Maximus after June 363 CE, especially not the purely episcopal ones.

[myceliumme]

Thanks for enlightening and explaining your words. I don't argue the metaphor of building bridges between heaven and earth, and christian kidnapping of the title, but part of it was about building physical bridges between the hills (and people(s)) of Rome, if my memories of my Latin lessons are correct. Implications of temporal power!

I'm with you in that I don't accept post-363 popes, but nor do I accept pre-363 ones. No point in me joining an argument about the 'true' messenger(s) of God when I dispute the existence of all deities.

[silverwhistle]

but part of it was about building physical bridges between the hills (and people(s)) of Rome, if my memories of my Latin lessons are correct.

No, it was purely a priestly title, as far as I understand it.

I'm with you in that I don't accept post-363 popes,

Not popes, Pontifeces Maximi. Not same thing.

but nor do I accept pre-363 ones. No point in me joining an argument about the 'true' messenger(s) of God when I dispute the existence of all deities.

I don't have a problem with mythological ones who exist in the realm of myth, which is that of the human imagination, as symbolic figures or personifications of (real) natural forces. The problem with the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic set-up is that it makes real-world historical truth-claims about impossibilities.

And they shouldn't nick titles from other people's religions. It's just not on.