Comments | rahirah: Love less than perfect

rahirah

Love less than perfect

Feb 21, 2010 20:56

A lot of people who ship Spike/Buffy do so on the basis of Spike's speech in "Touched" - he's seen Buffy at her best and her worst, and still loves her, without expecting anything from her in return. His love for her is pure and selfless. What I sometimes wonder, though, is... does Buffy return the favor?

That's not to say that I think Buffy ( Read more... )

oh spuffy i wish i could quit you, btvs/ats, meta

Comments 61

angearia February 22 2010, 04:26:07 UTC

I think Buffy would be the last person to idealize Spike. I think it's more that the transition from her hating him to loving him has odd starts and stops. I'm reminded of when she says she "sometimes" likes him during Season 6 when they're laughing and actually having "a conversation" while lying under the carpets.

Buffy becomes so insulated and even repressed emotionally as a character by Season 7, so it's not the standard love affair for her. Not in terms of the declarations one would normally expect and the ones we in fact get from Spike. Rather, that when it comes down to doing her duty and believing in him because he needs her belief, she unlocks his chains and sets him free. The key moments to me that determine her emotional love are to me based on what she's willing to do for Spike. Like when Xander is kidnapped by a demon, but Spike gets knocked down and she runs to his side even though Spike isn't hurt. Or the way she calls his crypt "cozy" -- she looks back on his crypt with a smile and fond memories in Season 7 ( ... )

auroramama February 22 2010, 04:42:16 UTC

Mmmm, I like that: in Chosen she's refound the fire she sang about, but it burns without hurting either of them.

gabrielleabelle February 22 2010, 05:03:25 UTC

See, there's a reason I read comments first. Cause, inevitably, someone will have already said a lot of my thoughts. :)

gabrielleabelle February 22 2010, 05:09:46 UTC

(I might be coming off a bit argumentative here because I've been arguing on Buffy's behalf elsewhere that she is in fact a hero. Sigh.)

Also, OMGWTFBBQ? Where?

Thread 20

elizardbits February 22 2010, 04:35:04 UTC

rahirah February 23 2010, 00:02:17 UTC

:joins you in not thinking:

Does Buffy love Buffy? auroramama February 22 2010, 04:38:52 UTC

I think she does love the real, everyday Spike, but her everyday love is mixed with projected self-hatred, because he's too much like her. A lot of his flaws, she can't relax and accept because they're also hers, and when she gets too casual about her flaws, worlds end.

She's only ever sure she's okay when she's sacrificing herself. That was her heaven: having given all she had, she was complete; with no more to do, she finally knew she was okay, from now to forever. Being brought back to life destroyed that sureness. Somehow, it was all to do again.

I think she's applying the same standards to Spike. But Spike, even when seriously messed up and soul-ridden, isn't quite as self-destructive as Buffy, so he's not projecting the same self-hatred onto her. That's what he can give her: a measure of lightness, of self-kindness. Whether she can give him something as valuable, I can't say, but he seems to think so.

Re: Does Buffy love Buffy? angearia February 22 2010, 04:50:48 UTC

Whether she can give him something as valuable, I can't say, but he seems to think so.

Her belief in him. It saved his soul when the First was hellbent on tempting him to evil's side. "She believes in me, she believes in me, she believes in me..." Her belief in him gave him strength to believe in his ability to redeem himself. To love and be loved, to forgive. And everybody's okay, right? For he will be loved.

Re: Does Buffy love Buffy? gabrielleabelle February 22 2010, 05:04:38 UTC

Oooh. Nice. And noteworthy in that Buffy's belief was not as valuable to Angel when he was tortured by The First in Amends (Angel gave up and had to be saved by magic snow).

Re: Does Buffy love Buffy? elisi February 22 2010, 09:53:47 UTC

I've written meta on that! :)

Thread 6

ubi4soft February 22 2010, 04:42:06 UTC

Yes, I think Buffy loves a "dope, bonehead and shirty" Spike.

rahirah February 23 2010, 00:03:57 UTC

Heh!

gabrielleabelle February 22 2010, 05:09:07 UTC

Does Buffy love the Spike who leaves wet towels on the floor and writes crappy, embarrassing poetry? The Spike who's snarky and bad-tempered and emotionally needy and occasionally childish and jealous, who might selfishly desire some commitment from her in return for his devotion, even if he never feels entitled to request it? (God knows, a lot of fans don't love that Spike, and prefer to believe that any indication he still exists post-soul is bad writing.) Does Buffy love Spike, or an image of Spike as idealized and unreal as the image of Angel she's enshrined in memory?I think it's less a question of "does she" and more of "could she". Because we first fall in love with an idealized version of a person. In S7, Buffy and Spike were in the midst of an all-out war. Not really the place for a down-to-earth romance to develop. Buffy loved Spike for what he'd accomplished and done (fighting his nature, obtaining a soul, remaining with her). After all, we love a person for the big stuff first ( ... )

prophecygirrl February 22 2010, 13:47:29 UTC

I've always thought that in Chosen, Buffy and Spike were addressing different nuances of the "i love you" question, without having the time to sort it out appropriately. They were on the cusp of something both grand and real, but the timing was absolutely wrong, and then there was no time left at all.

Rahirah notes the issue from Spike's side, and you voice it beautifully from Buffy's. Thanks for expressing my own thoughts so eloquently.

BTW, it's also very easy to picture a day in the distant future where Spike's gone after a lifetime together, and Buffy breaks down because the towels are NOT on the bathroom floor, and the mugs are all clean, and her favorite sword is right where she left it.

gabrielleabelle February 22 2010, 14:20:00 UTC

I've always thought that in Chosen, Buffy and Spike were addressing different nuances of the "i love you" question, without having the time to sort it out appropriately. They were on the cusp of something both grand and real, but the timing was absolutely wrong, and then there was no time left at all.

Agreed. That's why I love the ending so much (even though I love to read post-Chosen reunion fics that address that question).

BTW, it's also very easy to picture a day in the distant future where Spike's gone after a lifetime together, and Buffy breaks down because the towels are NOT on the bathroom floor, and the mugs are all clean, and her favorite sword is right where she left it.

Someone should write this. Would be an interesting change from the standard "Buffy dies and Spike mourns" fics.

eowyn_315 February 22 2010, 16:00:51 UTC

This.

Thread 6