I have to say that this is something that I was thinking about. With the way the interactions were happening - specifically "He said shut up to me" that was a clue.
I was thinking that was the door that opened the tidal wave of the connection being able to be opened - here is where I thought it might have been better - if Sam actually communicated (which is the stereo typical idea of a personal with a mental illness) however I thought the reason that the Hallucifer wasn't letting Sam sleep at all was because he wanted to the communication. I'm wondering if Sam had actually talked to the hallicifer representation it might have let him sleep and Sam might have been able to work with it (as we saw in Repo man). Only a thought. Thank you for sharing.
I have a whole off-shoot of this theory about, if its true, what Lucifer wants; it relates to the consent issues inherent in the show's mythos which I'm probably going to write on next. I was going to add it here and it got a bit convoluted, haha.
No matter what, the pieces here are rather fascinating to try to fit together. Thanks for commenting!
I plan to get into the off-shot with the next meta, but the general idea is that Sam has already given consent to Lucifer once, meaning (by my theory) that he's given it for life. Perhaps by breaking down Sam completely through this link, Lucifer can somehow take control of his vessel back.
Interesting theory, and I like how it results in a more positive outlook! Much of it makes a lot of sense to me! Although I'm not totally on board. Partly because I feel like it might be reading a little too deeply into things, and partly because I feel like Cas (and Death for that matter) would be able to glean the difference between trauma-induced hallucinations and a bona-fide psychic connection to Satan. And, you know, mentioned something about it. But I still like the idea, and I'm staying open to it!
And if Cas took in Sam’s memories as well, which would have the same effect on Cas as Sam most likely and lead to Lucifer-vision, then I am not going to be happy. It’s far too sloppy of a quick-fix... Peace of mind only comes from having those memories and I don’t think someone like Sam would want them gone.Gotta disagree with you on this one. Only because the fact that Sam is better now doesn't negate what he's beet through this whole season. Even if he may not remember Hell, he's still going to remember suffering the after-
( ... )
Oh, it probably is reading too much into things, but what's the fun otherwise? ;)
partly because I feel like Cas (and Death for that matter) would be able to glean the difference between trauma-induced hallucinations and a bona-fide psychic connection to Satan. And, you know, mentioned something about it.
Ah, that was something I intended to add in and forgot! If we accept this premise as true, I think Death's Wall serves as a means of blocking the connection. By the time Cas got his hand on Sam's soul to check in "Like a Virgin," the Wall was already up, and therefore no connection. As for Cas, my theory is that every angel-vessel link is different (which I plan on looking at in another meta) so he might not have realized what he was seeing.
Gotta disagree with you on this one. Only because the fact that Sam is better now doesn't negate what he's beet through this whole season. Even if he may not remember Hell, he's still going to remember suffering the after-effects. He'll still remember being sleep-deprived and locked up in a
( ... )
You know I support these theories. When Cas pulled from Sam, what exactly was he pulling? Why would Lucifer say " hello brother"? Hes a hallucination. Hallucinations arent real.
I saw this on monicawoe's post! I like it, I think. Especially if it started as Sam's own mind hallucinating, but Lucifer had enough psychic connection (because of the vessel-isues, Sam's prior consent, and the psychic link he had with the YED) that as Sam's mind breaks down, he's able to wriggle in more and more of himself.
I was wondering, if it really is Lucifer, why he wanted to kill Sam. But it makes more sense if he was trying to weaken Sam, to break him down physically and emotionally to the point where Lucifer could gain control of the body. I think he still wouldn't literally be on earth, if that happened, more like radio-controlling Sam's body from within the Cage.
You know, I could see the early hallucinations like the chains and meat hooks in "Meet the New Boss" being Sam's mind trying to sort through the memories and then by the end of the episode, Lucifer had wormed his way into Sam's mind. And the hand thing working because pain somehow interrupted the connection. I rather like that.
I was wondering, if it really is Lucifer, why he wanted to kill Sam. But it makes more sense if he was trying to weaken Sam, to break him down physically and emotionally to the point where Lucifer could gain control of the body. I think he still wouldn't literally be on earth, if that happened, more like radio-controlling Sam's body from within the Cage.
This is exactly what I think is going on. And if Lucifer radio controls Sam from the Cage, he could potentially use him to open the Cage again and really let him out \o/
And if Lucifer radio controls Sam from the Cage, he could potentially use him to open the Cage again and really let him out! Exactly! I bet that was the end-game.
I do like the idea that at first the hallucinations were Sam's, or mostly Sam's, that Lucifer only gradually started to manipulate them as time went on. I prefer the idea that we got at least some insight into Sam's subconscious, you know?
Also, I wonder if the clown beat-down in Plucky Pennywhistle's might have been one of the cracks that let him in more - there's that last shot of the clown-doll laughing, which was echoed by Hallucifer laughing at the end of Repo Man - could be the first sign that he was growing stronger, maybe.
Also, I wonder if the clown beat-down in Plucky Pennywhistle's might have been one of the cracks that let him in more - there's that last shot of the clown-doll laughing, which was echoed by Hallucifer laughing at the end of Repo Man - could be the first sign that he was growing stronger, maybe.
I think that's entirely likely. I said to a friend after we got the episode description for "Plucky's" that I'd bet that when you traced Sam's inevitable breakdown backwards, the first crack would probably be in that episode. After it aired, Sam seemed okay but, despite the humor of that episode, the idea of Sam's greatest fear nearly killing him seems more likely to be a crack than not.
I love the echo of the laughs, too. That's fantastic.
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I was thinking that was the door that opened the tidal wave of the connection being able to be opened - here is where I thought it might have been better - if Sam actually communicated (which is the stereo typical idea of a personal with a mental illness) however I thought the reason that the Hallucifer wasn't letting Sam sleep at all was because he wanted to the communication. I'm wondering if Sam had actually talked to the hallicifer representation it might have let him sleep and Sam might have been able to work with it (as we saw in Repo man). Only a thought. Thank you for sharing.
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No matter what, the pieces here are rather fascinating to try to fit together. Thanks for commenting!
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I was also thinking (after writing this) could the connection be the way in which they are able to find an answer in dealing with the levithan?
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And if Cas took in Sam’s memories as well, which would have the same effect on Cas as Sam most likely and lead to Lucifer-vision, then I am not going to be happy. It’s far too sloppy of a quick-fix... Peace of mind only comes from having those memories and I don’t think someone like Sam would want them gone.Gotta disagree with you on this one. Only because the fact that Sam is better now doesn't negate what he's beet through this whole season. Even if he may not remember Hell, he's still going to remember suffering the after- ( ... )
Reply
partly because I feel like Cas (and Death for that matter) would be able to glean the difference between trauma-induced hallucinations and a bona-fide psychic connection to Satan. And, you know, mentioned something about it.
Ah, that was something I intended to add in and forgot! If we accept this premise as true, I think Death's Wall serves as a means of blocking the connection. By the time Cas got his hand on Sam's soul to check in "Like a Virgin," the Wall was already up, and therefore no connection. As for Cas, my theory is that every angel-vessel link is different (which I plan on looking at in another meta) so he might not have realized what he was seeing.
Gotta disagree with you on this one. Only because the fact that Sam is better now doesn't negate what he's beet through this whole season. Even if he may not remember Hell, he's still going to remember suffering the after-effects. He'll still remember being sleep-deprived and locked up in a ( ... )
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I was wondering, if it really is Lucifer, why he wanted to kill Sam. But it makes more sense if he was trying to weaken Sam, to break him down physically and emotionally to the point where Lucifer could gain control of the body. I think he still wouldn't literally be on earth, if that happened, more like radio-controlling Sam's body from within the Cage.
Reply
I was wondering, if it really is Lucifer, why he wanted to kill Sam. But it makes more sense if he was trying to weaken Sam, to break him down physically and emotionally to the point where Lucifer could gain control of the body. I think he still wouldn't literally be on earth, if that happened, more like radio-controlling Sam's body from within the Cage.
This is exactly what I think is going on. And if Lucifer radio controls Sam from the Cage, he could potentially use him to open the Cage again and really let him out \o/
Reply
I do like the idea that at first the hallucinations were Sam's, or mostly Sam's, that Lucifer only gradually started to manipulate them as time went on. I prefer the idea that we got at least some insight into Sam's subconscious, you know?
Also, I wonder if the clown beat-down in Plucky Pennywhistle's might have been one of the cracks that let him in more - there's that last shot of the clown-doll laughing, which was echoed by Hallucifer laughing at the end of Repo Man - could be the first sign that he was growing stronger, maybe.
Reply
I think that's entirely likely. I said to a friend after we got the episode description for "Plucky's" that I'd bet that when you traced Sam's inevitable breakdown backwards, the first crack would probably be in that episode. After it aired, Sam seemed okay but, despite the humor of that episode, the idea of Sam's greatest fear nearly killing him seems more likely to be a crack than not.
I love the echo of the laughs, too. That's fantastic.
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