The Crowley Sam relationship is one of the most interesting ones right now. Sam would be a fool to trust Crowley no matter how much blood he has in him. He's been there with Ruby. Plus, Crowley is Crowley and inherently out for himself. Look at how he healed Bobby unasked and then turned around and used Soulless Sam to catch alphas. It's impossible to tell if his new found humanity is real or an act
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It's impossible to tell if his new found humanity is real or an act.
And even if some of it is sincere, that doesn't necessarily mean he's safe, you know? The thing that's made Crowley an occasionally manageable presence in their lives is that he's so frankly self-interested that they can occasionally guess what he's up to, you know? But once he becomes a little bit emotional and subjective, he gets a lot less predictable and more dangerous.
I think Sam may well be in great danger from Dean once he gets control of the First Blade. I have no problem believing that Dean will be able to convince himself that now, after Sam released and recaged Lucifer, now he needs to follow John's orders and kill Sam. Or at least to follow Cain's example and save Sam by killing him.
I have no problem believing Dean wouldn't even bother with that many steps of rationalization. It's not like he hasn't played fast and loose with Sam's life multiple times in the last couple of years even without the aggravating factor of the Mark.
oh, loved everything you've written here and I'd love to discuss!!!!
Alas, work is totally cramping my fangirl style of late. Maybe I'll get a chance to come back to this discussion before everyone's moved on. For me, there are so many layers to this season. I doubt I'll even catch it until I get a change to go back for a rewatch.
I get warm fuzzies about Crowley but it's mainly due to Mark Sheppard's charisma and amazing portrayal. Crowley is always out for Crowley and you never know when he will turn and bite your hand off. At times it's hard to remember how savage he was last season. Not to mention this season keeping Mrs. Tran in a dark storage locker, torturing her. Your take helps explain the part that baffled me last night. Which was Sam's extreme hostility to Crowley. Sam was baring his teeth at him. Yet they do have some sort of odd relationship. For one thing, Crowley does seem to be crushing on Sam (as who wouldn't?). I mean, "Not Moose"?????
(BUT ACTUALLY I JUST LOVE THIS? How we’ve spent all this time like, Sam needs backup, Sam needs a friend, and here he gets Crowley the glassy-eyed superfan giving him all the affection and validation that he wanted so badly out of Cas a few weeks ago. AWWWWWW. But also sick and kind of exploitative and will do him no favors. But also AWWWWWWW.)Heh. How great would it be if Crowley had to be Sam's ally
( ... )
Yeah, I remain really impressed with how easy I've always found it to like Crowley. Not so much because he's a bad dude (ahahahaha) but I feel like I should be associating him with his BSG character who, while not technically villainous, never fails to reduce me to incoherent hissing and spitting. Same guy, same distinctive smarmy intelligence...but yet somehow accessible and endearing as a monster forged in the flames of Hell.
A lot of people seem surprised at Sam's reaction to Crowley but I thought it was awesome? He's working so hard to keep Dean out of his head, of course he's going to keep the walls up around Crowley. Or maybe I just like watching Sam let himself be pissed off at someone! Whatever reason, it worked for me.
How great would it be if Crowley had to be Sam's ally against Dean turned Cain?
It wouldn't be out of nowhere, for sure. And it would piss Sam off to no end, which is always fun.
Nasty, pathetic, untrustworthy Crowley is a walking, incessantly talking reminder of what Sam didn’t do when he backed away from the Trials.
YES.
And you're right: having Crowley around is disturbing to Sam on a lot of levels.
he’s rightfully confident that he knows how to play Dean, but Sam really does pose a threat to Crowley, on top of Crowley being as emotionally vulnerable to Sam as he’s capable of being. “Moose” and “Not Moose” are Crowley’s points of contact with the human world, even though “Not Moose” is the one who calls him constantly.
asdfhjhjkl;
I really have nothing constructive to add to that, except that Show using Crowley as the person this season with the ~bond with Sam is both hilarious and kind of tragic.
Show using Crowley as the person this season with the ~bond with Sam is both hilarious and kind of tragic
IT'S SO GREAT. And I feel like Sam knows it is absurd, and he would be reacting uncomfortably to anyone validating him, but Crowley? No wonder he's pissy about the whole thing.
Oh! Also! This is a new theory as of about the last forty-five minutes, but I am starting to think it's kind of a displacement of the conflict with Dean? If he is anti-Crowley then he's putting up an argument against Dean's decisions here, but he doesn't have to tackle the Gadreel thing head-on; he can be resistant to the whole Cain thing without looking like he's scared of Cain and Cain!Dean?
How about a more simple explanation re Sam's 'hostility' to Crowley????
CROWLEY IS A DEMON!!!! FFS who is only 'helping' them (and I use that term very loosely) only to help himself
For years now, Sam has been continually 'bashed' by both Dean, the Show and fandom for hooking up with Ruby (another demon) and yet now, he is still getting abused for not being Crowley's BFF. Poor boy can't do anything right. He's damned if he does (Ruby) and damned if he doesn't (Crowley).
That'd totally be enough to justify it, of course. But "evil thing trying to mess with me" is....pretty normal for Sam, all things told? So if he's acting differently than he usually would, then I think we can learn something about Sam's state of mind from that.
Poor boy can't do anything right. He's damned if he does (Ruby) and damned if he doesn't (Crowley)
TRUE. I think the narrative is pretty fair this time around? Because this season's Ruby wasn't Crowley, it was Gadreel, and Dean is (rightfully) still twisting on the hook for that one. But yeah, people do seem rather desperate to miss the point.
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And even if some of it is sincere, that doesn't necessarily mean he's safe, you know? The thing that's made Crowley an occasionally manageable presence in their lives is that he's so frankly self-interested that they can occasionally guess what he's up to, you know? But once he becomes a little bit emotional and subjective, he gets a lot less predictable and more dangerous.
I think Sam may well be in great danger from Dean once he gets control of the First Blade. I have no problem believing that Dean will be able to convince himself that now, after Sam released and recaged Lucifer, now he needs to follow John's orders and kill Sam. Or at least to follow Cain's example and save Sam by killing him.
I have no problem believing Dean wouldn't even bother with that many steps of rationalization. It's not like he hasn't played fast and loose with Sam's life multiple times in the last couple of years even without the aggravating factor of the Mark.
The only issue I had ( ... )
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Alas, work is totally cramping my fangirl style of late. Maybe I'll get a chance to come back to this discussion before everyone's moved on. For me, there are so many layers to this season. I doubt I'll even catch it until I get a change to go back for a rewatch.
Anyway, I really enjoyed reading this.
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(You’re probably thinking of His newer stuff? His older work is actually a lot edgier.)
Lmfao. LMFAO!!!
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(BUT ACTUALLY I JUST LOVE THIS? How we’ve spent all this time like, Sam needs backup, Sam needs a friend, and here he gets Crowley the glassy-eyed superfan giving him all the affection and validation that he wanted so badly out of Cas a few weeks ago. AWWWWWW. But also sick and kind of exploitative and will do him no favors. But also AWWWWWWW.)Heh. How great would it be if Crowley had to be Sam's ally ( ... )
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A lot of people seem surprised at Sam's reaction to Crowley but I thought it was awesome? He's working so hard to keep Dean out of his head, of course he's going to keep the walls up around Crowley. Or maybe I just like watching Sam let himself be pissed off at someone! Whatever reason, it worked for me.
How great would it be if Crowley had to be Sam's ally against Dean turned Cain?
It wouldn't be out of nowhere, for sure. And it would piss Sam off to no end, which is always fun.
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YES.
And you're right: having Crowley around is disturbing to Sam on a lot of levels.
he’s rightfully confident that he knows how to play Dean, but Sam really does pose a threat to Crowley, on top of Crowley being as emotionally vulnerable to Sam as he’s capable of being. “Moose” and “Not Moose” are Crowley’s points of contact with the human world, even though “Not Moose” is the one who calls him constantly.
asdfhjhjkl;
I really have nothing constructive to add to that, except that Show using Crowley as the person this season with the ~bond with Sam is both hilarious and kind of tragic.
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IT'S SO GREAT. And I feel like Sam knows it is absurd, and he would be reacting uncomfortably to anyone validating him, but Crowley? No wonder he's pissy about the whole thing.
Oh! Also! This is a new theory as of about the last forty-five minutes, but I am starting to think it's kind of a displacement of the conflict with Dean? If he is anti-Crowley then he's putting up an argument against Dean's decisions here, but he doesn't have to tackle the Gadreel thing head-on; he can be resistant to the whole Cain thing without looking like he's scared of Cain and Cain!Dean?
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CROWLEY IS A DEMON!!!! FFS who is only 'helping' them (and I use that term very loosely) only to help himself
For years now, Sam has been continually 'bashed' by both Dean, the Show and fandom for hooking up with Ruby (another demon) and yet now, he is still getting abused for not being Crowley's BFF. Poor boy can't do anything right. He's damned if he does (Ruby) and damned if he doesn't (Crowley).
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Poor boy can't do anything right. He's damned if he does (Ruby) and damned if he doesn't (Crowley)
TRUE. I think the narrative is pretty fair this time around? Because this season's Ruby wasn't Crowley, it was Gadreel, and Dean is (rightfully) still twisting on the hook for that one. But yeah, people do seem rather desperate to miss the point.
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