in fact, I have watched the pilot. I'm still right.

[pocochina]

I read through this post and would like not to let it pass without comment. In the first part of my response I will do my best to explain how Dean’s behavior toward Sam meets a lot of the criteria for intimate partner abuse, because the OP does not seem to grasp the argument we are making. I will assume good faith, though - this is a difficult

Comments

[a_white_rain]

Tomorrow I'll likely write a novel at you but I was reading the comments above about when you entered the show. I was here mid season six and isolated completely from the fandom. Two things that stuck out to me as wtf is the idea that the text ever supported the idea Dean was any sort of moral voice when it was Sam who pointed out morally questionable things like shooting the kid in Nughtmare instead of hearing out the details. Sam wails on Dean in season two and tells him thier job is hunting evil not killing monsters. Dean is unsettled and shocked at Sam's growing ruthlessness in season three because it was a change in Sam mo.

The other thing is the nature of Sam's darker nature. Possessive and jealous evil boy king Sam is so pervasive that I wonder what show those people are watching. Sam wanting control of himself and his own body is not the same as wanting to control others. This bothers me so much because I relate so much to Sam's need to control himself after having it so brutally torn from him his entire life.

[pocochina]

Fanon!Winchesters are just such a stark illustration of "people respond to your persona, not anything verifiably true about you." Dean thinks he's this poor put-upon love martyr whose emotional impulses are a viable moral compass, and so he gets credit for that even though by now he is PRETTY MUCH AWFUL PRETTY MUCH ALWAYS. Sam shows doubt about his decisions and has bought into the devil-spawn dehumanization he's received, and so the audience treats him as ~~morally ambiguous, partly because of the self-presentation resulting from his self-image and partly because vilifying Sam is the only way to uphold the false construct of Dean.

Possessive and jealous evil boy king Sam is so pervasive that I wonder what show those people are watching. Sam wanting control of himself and his own body is not the same as wanting to control others.

OMG THANK YOU.

[a_white_rain]

I don't even think Dean sees himself as a moral compass. His aggressive and dominate behavior is not justified as goodness in the way fandom sees it. I think he still relies on Sam to be the pure shinning goodness in their relationship. Yeah he'll pull out Sam's horrible mistakes like not having a soul to control Sam. But I kind of read it as Sam will go bad if I don't keep him in line and I'll also do the dirty work so he doesn't have to. That's how he can live with hurting Sam so much and fandom sees it as protection when it's actually victimization.

It just gets me because Sam never had health boundaries as a kid and him trying to make them as an adult reads like fandom punishing him to me and I take it irrationally personally.

[manzanita_crow]

I love evil boyKing!Sam actually. Jared does OTT evil so well and I do love a good hammy villain. But evil!Sam has very little relation to canon!Sam, so I don't confuse the two :D

[duckondebut]

There's something to be said for catching up on Show late. I've been watching it for nearly eight years now, and been in fandom since s3. It's... difficult to form a clear perspective on SamnDean when you are exposed to quite so much ~brotherly~ fanon. But as the show went on, the vibes I was getting from the show didn't quite match up with what I was reading in discussions/analyses/fanfiction, and this led to an ever-deepening sense of frustration and distress. I blamed the show. I blamed the writing. It was quite a case of cognitive dissonance: the SamnDean I'm seeing in canon is nothing like what I see in fanon, so it must mean the writing is flawed in some way! The writers don't care any more! The actors don't care anymore! I feel a lot but have limited tools at my means for logic/articulation, and was even more conflict-avoidant than I am now. So I abandoned my journal and thought of quitting SPN for good

[pocochina]

♥

It really is a very good story. And honestly, I think it's far less dark, the more confident I get that this issue is coming closer and closer to being addressed in some way.

[a_white_rain]

re: objectification. I actually think it goes way back futher than AHBL. Dean talks about how he just wanted Sam to be normal for as long as possible. I think that Sam's goodness/innocence/whatever became the thing that Dean needs to protect at all costs. Sam's life doesn't matter nearly as much as the image that Dean needs him to uphold. If Sam is good and right then Dean is justified in doing whatever he has to to keep that image safe - even from Sam himself. I honestly do not blame Dean a lick at all for the start of this - John was the one who warped Dean's relationship with Sam and Dean's sense of safety. But by the time they're adults, Dean's become the one at fault. There have been many times in early seasons I've felt for Dean - I know how hard it is to get away from toxic family dynamics

[pocochina]

I actually think it goes way back futher than AHBL. Dean talks about how he just wanted Sam to be normal for as long as possible. I think that Sam's goodness/innocence/whatever became the thing that Dean needs to protect at all costs.

Agreed. His little mascot Sammy is still an object. I think it's less....stark, maybe? in the times before he really came face to face with it when John came out with it in S2 and said Sam wasn't human. But the roots of it go back a long way, and they aren't evil. That's what's scary.

But by now? When Dean is pushing forty (not counting all the time in hell) I do blame him. I'd cut him way more slack if we see evidence of him trying and backsliding. But the cloest we get is the end of season five and after that he doesn't just backslide he objectifies Sam more than ever before. Now it's less about the good and pure Sammy image and more about just making sure Sam is with him on Dean's terms.

Exactly.

And then fandom derides Sam for putting down the EMT. Like... that shit went both ways and Dean

[a_white_rain]

As early as episode 1x6, Dean pressures Sam throughout the episode to sever ties with his friends from Stanford.
Even back then I was side-eyeing the hell out of Dean. Dean's possessivness of Sam has been there since the get-go. I really don't see why fandom misses it?

That's not explained by the "family business" excuse he gives Sam eventually, but it is entirely consistent if his subconscious calculations there are about retaining as much control over Sam as possible.
Dear god, yes.

How could you be so SELFISH, as to think you are ENTITLED to the level of self-determination that an education might earn you?I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY FANDOM WILLY-NILLY ACCEPTS IT? SERIUOSLY WTF IS WRONG WITH SAM GETTING AN EDUCATION? It's worse when they coat it in class-base language as if Sam fighting his way out of poverty is him abandoning his roots or some shit. We have zero evidence that Sam looks down on lower class people or is at all ashamed of where he came from. And, shit, the truth is that Sam's got a knack for acedemia. And that's

[pocochina]

It's worse when they coat it in class-base language as if Sam fighting his way out of poverty is him abandoning his roots or some shit.

YUP. "Sam should acquiesce to his abusers' whims because SOCIAL JUSTICE!" rme.

I resent the idea that the only reason Sam was able to get ahead in school is because Dean lifted the burden of hunting from Sam. When, no, that's not at all true. Yes, Dean did his best to protect Sam. But as soon as Sam learned what's up, John gave him a gun. John was pushing Sam to train with crossbows and shaming him for wanting to play soccor. Sam went on hunts (if not going for kills) as young as tweleve. At fifteen, John and Dean were utalizing Sam's significant research skills for hunts. Sam found a way to get good grades in between all of that shit. Dean likely spent his free time learning how to fix cars, Sam spent his learning advanced math. And, like, I don't blame Dean for not being a protective flawless brother who helped Sam in all ways. Dean was working under abusive circumstatances as well as Sam.QFT. As

[a_white_rain]

He could have emailed her, I suppose, but as early as 8x03 Dean was making a point of reading Sam's email.
LIKE SERIOUSLY WTF DEAN. I think like my only response to that episode I made on line is something along those lines. WTF Dean WTF. Team Sam Going Back to College if he Wants 4lyfe.

re: the Impala. Dean also takes issues when Sam makes the car his own like by using his iphone for his own music or having a dog in it. Like, how dare Sam actually leave his own mark on his own home. No wonder Sam isn't living it up in the batcave. He's constantly shamed when he does it in the impala. Along with his legit issues surrounding the fact that the few times he's built a home, it's been torn from him, I just can't blame him for his choice not to nest like Dean. Sam's got every right to protect his mental health by not opening himself up for more pain in their very unstable world. The fact that Dean can't grasp that is horrifying to me.

HE does not like the idea of Sam having independent interests which do not hinge on HIS tastes.Exactly.

[pocochina]

Dean also takes issues when Sam makes the car his own like by using his iphone for his own music or having a dog in it. Like, how dare Sam actually leave his own mark on his own home.

OH MY GOD. The idea that PLUGGING IN A CORD is "screwing with the car" because anything Sam wants is CLEARLY PROFANE. Microaggressions add up.

lol @ PTSD being an excuse for abusive behavior. lolololol. not offensive at all. also: Sam's been showing symtoms of PTSD since season one with his constant nightmares about Jess and his inability to sleep and his patterns of thinking. But PTSD only seems to count in fandom when people want to fetish it or use it as an excuse for shitty behavior.

Totally disableist.

It's like people are saying that the sky is green and it's such an absurd statement that I'm not even sure if taking pictures of our blue sky would change their minds!

It's so frustrating.