SPN 9x10 - Road Trip

Jan 15, 2014 20:35

Metatron’s mind games with Gadreel were pitch-perfect. He rides Gadreel about you’re a screw-up, nobody’ll have you but me, you have to fight more and harder and maybe just maybe I’ll give you a way out of this shame spiral which you’re only in because you’re such a failure, have we talked lately about how I’m a saint for not reminding you of that ( Read more... )

spn: sammay!, supernatural, spn: corpus angelorum, spn: dean what even, abuse

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Comments 25

blackjedii January 16 2014, 02:16:32 UTC
I watched a little last night (because I really can't stand the more problematic aspects of SPN anymore and become I really get uneasy with super-controlling characters masquerading as well, non-controlling) but I had a sort-of different read to Dean's POISON.

Not so much that Sam would fight back but that Sam and Castiel would rush to defend his honor . Not consciously mind but I feel like Dean wanted to hear from his brother or Castiel that he wasn't all bad or that hey understood or some minor ego-stroking and when he didn't get it he didn't really know what to do. Dean loves to guilt-trip so I saw it less as wanting the confrontation as needing (desperately needing) the validation. Part of him I am sure thinks he is a TERRIBLE HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING but... for all the wrong reasons whereas his attitude for Sam has always been justified or worked out in his favor.

Also Sam as "Sloppy Seconds." Because the rape-y imagery of Sam Winchester isn't there enough.

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pocochina January 16 2014, 04:13:04 UTC
Not consciously mind but I feel like Dean wanted to hear from his brother or Castiel that he wasn't all bad or that hey understood or some minor ego-stroking and when he didn't get it he didn't really know what to do. Dean loves to guilt-trip so I saw it less as wanting the confrontation as needing (desperately needing) the validation.Exactly. He either wanted Sam to fuss over him and comfort him, or failing that, to blow his top and give away some vulnerability that Dean could use to turn it around on him. I think that's why Sam not giving an inch is pissing people off so much? Not because it was Sam not being nice enough - because he clearly had grounds to be a whole lot worse - but because Dean was flailing around for the upper hand and for once he could not get it ( ... )

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a_white_rain January 16 2014, 05:06:36 UTC
Re: the rape line

I'm speaking as a victim here but some part of me is like SERVES U RITE U MAN CREATURE but then it dies because I know male survivors and no one deserves to be talked about that way. But the fact that Sam is a white guy makes it easy for me to digest in the sense these jokes are common place and wtf wouldn't he? When it's a woman it just bugs me cos I live it and don't want to see it. as for men of color - their violations are often racial in a way I don't know emotionally and so I would have a total different emotional reaction

//SUBJECTIVE

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pocochina January 16 2014, 06:37:44 UTC
That's a fair point. I think I tend to do better with certain things made more direct and explicit, rather than less, but I'm not sure if I would've had the same reaction if the visual had been a little bit different.

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percysowner January 16 2014, 02:21:04 UTC
I totally agree that Crowley didn't tell Sam that Kevin's death wasn't Sam's fault because it helped Crowley. I do think he handled it well in as much as he identified Gadreel as the culprit, giving Sam an additional reason to fight and he pointed out the reality of the situation that Sam really wasn't the one who killed Kevin. Dean dismissing Sam's expression of guilt over Kevin's death came off as very manipulative to me. He starts with telling Sam that he knows Sam is pissed and it's okay. Basically Dean gave Sam permission to be "pissed" at him. Not furious, not angry, not outraged but pissed was authorized. Then Sam expresses feelings of guilt about Kevin's death. Unlike Crowley Dean doesn't say it's Gad's fault, he immediately swings into action and claims all the guilt for himself. Dean knows that Sam has consistently bolstered Dean when Dean is feeling "guilty". Sam tried to support Dean after John died and Dean felt guilty. When Sam found out about the soul selling and Dean told him tough toenails Dean got to be selfish ( ... )

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pocochina January 16 2014, 04:36:56 UTC
Dean dismissing Sam's expression of guilt over Kevin's death came off as very manipulative to me. He starts with telling Sam that he knows Sam is pissed and it's okay. Basically Dean gave Sam permission to be "pissed" at him. Not furious, not angry, not outraged but pissed was authorized.

YES. On your whole analysis of this scene, really. He was totally trying to manage Sam's emotional response to the whole thing. THAT. THAT IS THE PROBLEM, DEAN.

I'm not as optimistic as you because I can see Cas going into Dean is such a good man. He did what he did for love and you two belong together so you need to forgive Dean.I...actually can see that happening, and on the one hand it'll make me sad because, you know, I want Sam to have someone totally on his side. But from an outsider perspective, I think that the episode did a really thoughtful job setting up why Cas is so uncomfortable being an actual moral voice on this. I think Cas is having that lives-in-glass-houses fear that Sam usually has. Like, the fact that he sees through Dean's "I ( ... )

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auroramama January 16 2014, 05:01:52 UTC
But Dean did NOT pre-approve Sam feeling anything other than pissed.

I love this description. So much.

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a_white_rain January 16 2014, 05:32:30 UTC
I ACTUALLY LOGGED ONTO LJ BC I NEEDS TO TALK ( ... )

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pocochina January 16 2014, 06:09:14 UTC
!!!!! CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS. YES his freak-out at Gadreel was so perfect and made so much sense. Despising Gadreel is ingrained in him as deeply as, well, as despising the boy with the demon blood was back in S4/5. It's something that he doesn't have to fight against every one of his subconscious beliefs about how the world works, and it makes so much sense for the character to give in to it. That, and the overidentification wrt his own current situation with Metatron, it makes so much sense that he'd lash out that way.

I kind of think he buys Sam and Dean's true love lie and I can't blame him.

Oh, he totally buys it, and it breaks my heart.

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percysowner January 16 2014, 12:50:14 UTC
I LOVED THE FREAK OUT. THIS ONE ENTITY DESTROYED THE UNIVERSE? It wasn't lucifer, eve and Adam, or even god whose rules were set against everyone? It just goes to show how he's not dealing. Most of his family is dead, they've been in a bloody civil was for years, and his grace was stolen and he's had to murder his own family in order to survive.I know. The angels have this really weird view of God. He's the creator of the universe, their father and he is always right. But OTOH, he was so weak that one of his children messing up FORCED him to abandon the family, so to speak. Dean remarking that Castiel is such a child is on many levels part of Dean's need to be superior, but on one level is true of many angels in general. They do think that Daddy wouldn't leave unless someone forced him to, because God is Great, God is good and good fathers only leave for good reasons. So they blame whatever angel they think let Daddy down. Or they try to stop an Apocalypse so that Daddy will see that they all did their homework and did what Dad told ( ... )

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pocochina January 17 2014, 18:40:05 UTC
I've noticed this too. God has to be all-powerful AND morally blameless, and it's a paradox they can't reconcile.

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a_white_rain January 16 2014, 05:52:51 UTC
I think this was the episode I'm pretty sure that I'll never like Dean because he was just so willing to throw away Sam's life and decided Sam wasn't strong enough it fight off Gadriel despite all evidence to the contrary. His need to control Sam is so great he was willing to kill his own brother. I very rarely actually dislike characters but this just cuts too close for me. It is hilarious to me because an hour before I actually felt for Klaus when Davina wolfed him out when my general feelings for the character can be summed up with LULZ, how he relates to other characters, and how I can best use his issues to write stories ( ... )

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pocochina January 16 2014, 06:33:50 UTC
DEAN WAS SO AWFUL. He passed the point of no return for me in early S7 with Amy and subsequent abuse of Sam for not being nice enough about being gaslit like that, but this episode was a low moment even by my standards for him. But as a viewer, ugh, I loved it, because it was so brutally deliberate about pulling apart the Righteous Man facade.

Of course people are already going on about how ~sorry he is and how ~guilty he feels. No, he's sorry there were consequences. He's sorry he got caught.

SAM MY POOR BABY. He's better off now than he's been for a very long time, now that Dean's finally overplayed his hand

I've never felt Sam's voice has been lost in a narrative sense. He's lost the much of his ability to voice his own feelings but that's not the same as the narrative not caring about Sam's character.

EXACTLY and it upsets me so much that people conflate those two things. I can't articulate my feelings either, what, am I not a real person? GOD.

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a_white_rain January 16 2014, 17:01:12 UTC
There are times when I literally have know idea what I'm feeling esp after some brand new trauma. It's taken me years to be able to access feelings I've had from being abused. Many I could not until I was away from my abusers. Sam's tiredness rang true to me.

It's okay if it didn't to others! That's just a different story than there is nothing at all from Sam's pov.

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alleysweeper January 16 2014, 12:29:30 UTC
I believe Castiel stayed with Sam more out of necessity than choice. He said he would have to heal Sam over a period of time and I'm thinking that meant more than the few minutes they stood on the side of the road, most likely a few days.

This is not to say Castiel would not have chosen to stay with Sam, just that the option to leave really wasn't there.

Rock On!
Alley

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pocochina January 16 2014, 16:24:42 UTC
Mostly, for sure, but abandoning Sam even at significant detriment to Sam's well-being is something Cas did for a very long time because he thought it was what someone else wanted. He's helping Sam because he wants to, and sticking around from day to day rather than coming back periodically for whatever treatment because he wants to. On top of that, Sam not pushing Cas away - even though he has reason to be skittish about angels generally and even better reason to be skittish about people who are close to his brother - doesn't strike me as nothing coming from Sam.

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