director's cut of a tumblr post from last week

[pocochina]

This a subject that I've  had so many thoughts about for so long that I could never quite figure out how to pin them all down into a structure. Then I spitballed a reblog on tumblr a while back and, because I was just intending to make a quick comment, ended up accidentally forcing myself into organization. So here is the greatly-expanded version

Comments

[lyryk]

Interesting thoughts! I've never thought of Sam as being objectified in the ways that you outline here, but it's always cool to see other perspectives on characters.

Given that the existence of and danger posed by demons is the central fact of their daily lives, lying about that strikes me as some full-on Yellow Wallpaper shit.

I'm not sure if I'd see John lying to Sam about everything as a ~gender thing, but I like the idea that there are definite parallels between gender-related issues and the way Sam has to deal with stuff that happens to him. I like that you address the fact that John chose to keep Sam in the dark. I think it's one of the least-discussed aspects of the pre-series time period that I've come across, and I think it's definitely related, as you say, to how Sam constantly seems driven by the need to define a subjective identity for himself.

[pocochina]

It was so straightforwardly "don't worry your pretty head, honey" to me? And the STARK OFFENSE John, and later Dean, seem to take at Sam's intellect, because his willingness and ability to think things through for himself is a threat to his subjugation, and therefore their identity as the ~virile and virtuous protectors of Darling Little Sammy was....I've never seen it gendered in this particular way before

[lyryk]

or if it really is like "Sam is a big strong strapping man and therefore he can't be a victim"? because if so that is really disturbing.

Yeah, that's a bit worrying. I don't even know where a perception like that would come from, since the show constantly stresses that Sam is defintely capable of being hurt.

[pocochina]

I'd agree with that, but I do think there's a difference between the traditional "a male character can sustain manly injuries in a physical altercation between menfolk" and getting an audience to accept that "a male character is susceptible to intimate violations, relational aggression, and mind games, and therefore all the massive psychological damage those things cause." And (apparently) people can very much draw that arbitrary distinction, as we see with the different fan reaction to Sam in S7 and S8.

[myfriendamy]

I stopped watching Supernatural awhile back, but this is really really interesting stuff. I never thought about it like this (I didn't really think about the show very deeply, tbh) but from what I saw this all does make sense.

[pocochina]

I'm flattered you read then! Supernatural is all over the place in some ways - I happen to like the way it shifts in perspective and cynicism and hero/anti-hero/survivor and such, but I see why it's only inconsistently to other people's tastes - but seasons 4, 6, and 8 are each something special, 10/10 do recommend, if you're ever looking for something new.

[percysowner]

The first is that we see the scene through Sam’s POV, so we know he perceived himself as having had agency in the whole thing, and I'm uncomfortable defining the incident so hard against his own perception of it. And yet - he is incredibly psychologically compromised, he's drinking, he says no a whole bunch of times; I'm really uncomfortable ignoring that, too.Well women who have sex when they are drunk often blame themselves and see themselves as having agency and being WRONG to have sex, instead of calling it rape. It is hard to think of yourself as a victim, especially when society still defines rape as an act of overt violence. Doctor Phil (okay, not a sterling example of anything) actually tweeted "‘If a girl is drunk, is it OK to have sex with her?". Rape is still primarily seen as being a man forcing someone else, so I think it would be very hard for Sam to even conceive that he did not have agency during the sex with Ruby. Plus Sam has always wanted to be in control of his life, so perceiving himself as NOT being in

[pocochina]

It's a really thorny thing. I mean, the fact that she was working so hard to play him shows that she knows she is undermining his autonomy; I'm somewhat okay with using the word "dubcon" about fiction but I certainly wouldn't IRL, so we're already in very hinky territory