so.

[pocochina]

This is one of those big discomforts where I....feel like there's no @anyone to throw this at but I feel weird not saying it? disturbing content, obviously.

[TVD S3 finale spoilers]

I'm seeing a lot of worry about the implications of any Klaus-in-Tyler sexual activity which turn entirely on the general creepiness of Klaus and his infatuation with Caroline, and very little

Comments

[pocochina]

It's sort of an escalation to the max of what happened on her birthday, although there are differences too, obviously.

Exactly. And Klaus absolutely loves using Tyler to get at Caroline, because it feeds his whole delusion about being this romantic figure in her life, and because he knows it's the easiest way to increase his psychological control over Tyler. It's the same game he played even more effectively on Stefan. Klaus is an awesome villain to me not necessarily because he's scary or effective to any particular ends, sometimes he is and sometimes he isn't, but because he's really, really good at screwing with people's psychological autonomy like this.

words about having more confidence in the show's handling of Tyler's abuse narrative gives me hope that they won't be too gross about it: my worst fears are making meYeah, I mean, no argument with that on principle. IMO it's tough to be too skeptical of showrunners, particularly on this type of stuff. But there is a consistency with this character arc which makes me personally

[pocochina]

It's sort of similar to Richard Lockwood inciting Tyler and Jeremy to fight in The Turning Point? I don't know if that's an intentional parallel on the part of the show, though. Maybe I am giving them too much credit, heh.

Oh, I think it is absolutely intentional, or at least, the parallels come from the show intentionally telling this story with a lot of characters. I'm especially inclined to think that because of how much time we spent in S3 hammering home the issues with Mikael. I think it's a real high-wire act to explain Klaus without excusing him, and therefore keep Tyler's story clear and sympathetic without creating any free passes for the character, but it's a huge part of what I've enjoyed about the show so far, at least.

Given that I've seen debate on messageboards over whether Caroline is being violated or not (I kid you not)

This is why I love my BUBBLE.

[wheatear]

I've seen this discussed, so it has been mentioned, although definitely not as much as Caroline. You're 100% right though. They're both going to have to live with this, and Tyler's story line has been about him being used and controlled by Klaus, so it may well be acknowledged.

[pocochina]

aw, I don't think I realized how nervous I was feeling alone about this until I saw this comment and gave a HUGE sigh of relief so thank you. But ia, it's going to be awful for Tyler regardless, but anything involving Caroline is going to up the ante significantly.

[wheatear]

Ah, you're welcome! I don't see how your post could possibly be controversial, honestly. I hope the fall-out from this is going to be about Caroline and Tyler's relationship, and not about Klaus/Caroline. My hopes are not that high.

[pocochina]

I guess I worry because these are the rationales that get co-opted so frequently by IT'S NOT HIS FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAULT BECAUSE X EXCUSE. But in this case it really is not his fault OH TY.

[aerintine]

I did bring up this very thing in my 3x22 "review" (I use quotes here because let's face it. I don't write reviews. I flail all over the place, scream and cry, and then hit post ;)), and a couple of people commented on it. But you're right, it hasn't been widely discussed. I can't say I'm surprised though, because I rarely see Tyler's narrative discussed in any context

[pocochina]

I love that I can count on you to share my Tyler partisanship. It's this perfect storm of loss of agency/manipulation into feelings of complicity/getting sucked even deeper into this spiral he's fought so hard to escape/everything that presses my buttons so much that I don't really have perspective to gauge discussions of it, I guess.

Klaus' possession of Tyler brought everything to a new level, and I no longer share your confidence in the creative team's sharp, thoughtful treatment of Tyler's story - especially after reading a couple of interviews that likened Klaus' actions while inside of Tyler's body as humorous shenanigans rather than a horrific violationYeah, I'm not saying EVERYONE SHOULD BE 100% SURE IT WILL BE AWESOME, but in fairness, I rarely see "humorous shenanigans" and "horrific violation" as being mutually exclusive in TVD-world, particularly where Klaus is involved. It could be a phenomenal extension of the metaphor, this whole idea of "becoming what you hate

[penny_lane_42]

I agree with you. It reminds me of people not acknowledging that Faith absolutely raped Riley when she was in Buffy's body.

[pocochina]

people not acknowledging that Faith absolutely raped Riley when she was in Buffy's body.

.......

you'd think I would be completely incapable of disgusted surprise by now. And yet. WOW.

[penny_lane_42]

I haven't so much seen people denying it (though I'm sure that happens), as expressing surprise that I would phrase it that way. Or an "I never thought of it that way!" sort of thing. Or just sort of glossing over it.

[pocochina]

ugh, it's heartbreaking. (I think not understanding, or not wanting to understand, his reaction to the whole thing is at least a part of his spiral and retreat into that hard macho persona the next season? and so the whole "rape what rape" part of the narrative gets lost.)

[eilowyn]

Thank you for being Captain Obvious. I was wondering about this very question but keeping quiet because I kind of feel outside of the TVD discussion. To bring it back to Buffy (because everything comes back to Buffy with me), if we're to be squicked and call it a violation when Faith-in-Buffy's-body has sex with Riley, we should definitely be squicked about any Klaus-in-Tyler's-body sexual encounters he has, with Caroline or with anyone. I'm 99% sure they're going to go there, and I know everyone will be going EEEEEEW! for Caroline's sake, but it is worth noting that this is kind of rapey for Tyler, too.

[pocochina]

I'm 99% sure they're going to go there

From the few interviews I've read, it looks like they at least know they shouldn't go that far with it, but you know, I wouldn't bet the farm on anyone's judgment here.

I know everyone will be going EEEEEEW! for Caroline's sake, but it is worth noting that this is kind of rapey for Tyler, too.

totally. Which is why Klaus plays these games, because it exploits everyone. I just...sympathize more easily with Tyler, I guess? (BAD FEMINIST. BAD! lol.)

[eilowyn]

I don't think sympathizing with Tyler makes you a bad feminist. Violation is violation, and I would think that a feminist would reject the idea that we shouldn't care about Tyler because he's a dude and dudes don't get raped. Too binary, and it plays into the idea that only women can be victims of sexual assault and rape.

[pocochina]

Totally agreed. I was being a facetious, mostly, though lately I have started feeling like I am buying into "male characters are easier to relate to than female ones" a bit (not for the world generally, but maybe for me to some small extent?) and *ugh* on that. I mean, whatever, I know it's all complicated, but eh.