Giles and the "Wild Woman"

[norwie2010]

Giles and the „Wild Woman“

Preface 1: No fic, sorry. These are some meta-y thoughts about Giles, his role on the TV show and his relationship with different women. It is a bit incoherent, jumping from point to point and not restricted to Giles-thoughts. The Master, Wesley, Angel/us, Caleb, Snyder, … all make a short appearance. Oh, and the women, of

Comments

[ever_neutral]

FANTASTIC. Super tired right now and so have nothing intelligent to add, but I love all these thoughts. Giles isn't a character I think about much for whatever reason, but you obviously understand his role extremely well. :)

[norwie2010]

Come back when you're sober awake! :D

[gabrielleabelle]

Oh. How very fascinating.

I may be back later with thoughts.

*licks your brain*

[norwie2010]

*Feels sweetly licked*

Yay! Be back! I have a lot more thoughts in that licked brain of mine! (Giles' motives for leaving Buffy are actually a bit more complicated than what i wrote above. Willow! She's so, so cool! Ah, i love how amoral she is and i think that's a great help to her in becoming a "wild woman" in the first place!)

[angearia]

*pokes*

Ah ha! Very intriguing analysis of the gender-based power dynamics.

I love the idea of Buffy being free at the end of seven seasons. And yes, the break with Faith is so utterly tragic, all because Buffy's bound to Angel.

[norwie2010]

*happily pokes back* :-)

I was thinking about the depiction of female characters in pop culture in general (after reading the master thesis of an actress in which she showed the limited scope of female roles).

There is a lot more going on on BtVS - and once you know your tropes - it is actually quite funny: Once Willow becomes independent and powerful the show goes all OH NOES! THE WORLD IS DOOMED! WILLOW IS ALL APOCALYPT-Y!!! :D

(And don't get me started on Glory - ah, strike that: I WILL write about Glory in the future!

Buffy/Faith - my heart breaks for them both! But then, i don't know if Angel was the sole downfall of Buffy. Without him, their dynamic would have played out very differently for sure. But i think at this point in the series Buffy had internalized the patriarchal system quite well and deeply, i'm unsure if she would have been able to overcome that. (But of course i really, really wish for smutty happy Fuffy in some parallel universe... ;-)

[local_max]

My long response

[local_max]

On Willow: first off I hope that Willow is counted among the "best" rather than "worst" moments in the show. :P I also want to note that the seven-season story ends with an affirmation of Willow's power and willingness to change the world and reject existing institutions -- even her willingness to change other people's bodies for the better. [[ Second of two comics asides in this post: And I am so excited and scared for what her story will be in the comics I can barely stand it. My feeling is that in the end it will be ambivalent-positive, which suits me fine. ]] But in any case, Dark Willow really does need to be stopped for people who care about whether or not Dawn gets a say in whether she turns back into a Key, whether Jonathan and Andrew really deserve death, or who think genocide needs to be stopped. That said, it is interesting that the last one happens as a result of Giles’ arrival and the accompanying power-up, so that there is in the text perhaps a criticism of Giles’ arrival. But I don’t think it’s just a matter of

[local_max]

As far as Xander, as ever I think you are too harsh on the boy. ;) But regardless, here is my read of Xander at the end of Grave. Well, I have many thoughts about that, as you know. But I think what is IMPORTANT for your analysis here is this. Giles intends to Tame Willow. I don't think Xander does. I think he goes to her because he recognizes that she is in the most pain and needs to be there for her, so that *someone* can be there for her at the end of the world. Buffy has Dawn, he doesn't know what to do with Anya, and Willow is his oldest friend. Does he hope he can talk her down from destroying the world? Yes. But I think he is sincere in expressing his love for her *anyway*. He does block her from firing at the statue, but he opens himself up to her killing him if she wants to. He can’t stop her: all that he can hope to do is to remind her that she is loved and hope that she chooses not to save the world after that. And ultimately, I don't think Willow wants to destroy the world. She wants to live, she wants to be

[local_max]

In vague response to your comment to Emmie above, a few more Willow thoughts! The one other thing worth noting about Dark Willow is that I think, deep down, M.E. are ambivalent about _the world itself_, and recognize that we all on some level are tempted to destroy it or our little corner of it, _ourselves_. Or maybe that’s just me. But more to the point: Willow, in expressing the desire to destroy the world because it is so painful, losing hope that it can bring anything but misery, gives voice to one of the show’s most central questions in a way that Buffy-who on some level, is perhaps *constrained* to be the hero-cannot directly, though she does indirectly in “The Gift,” “Once More, with Feeling” and “Normal Again.” Angel arguably is motivated by some of the same reasons in Becoming, Part 2, but is certainly *not* concerned about anyone but himself (and the woman he can’t destroy). Willow begins with herself, and then extends her own feeling to the whole world, and, interpreting the whole world through her own understanding of

[ceciliaj]

Very interesting thoughts. I do think that (assuming comics thoughts are okay?) Giles's bequeathing of his estate to Faith can be read as a serious apology for having underestimated her for so long, and bad girl shamed her. He was all too happy to play along with Buffy's internalization of the rules of being a good girl during that plot, and I think it's interesting that there is that final reversal of his attentions. Again, in keeping with your theme, not that he should be given a cookie for finally realizing he was wrong, but that even he realized how often he went along unthinkingly with patriarchal assumptions about women's behavior.

Re:

[norwie2010]

As said above - i'm at work currently. Will reply later in more length.

Just this: Of course it is ok to bring in the comics (they sparked this post, after all!). Just beware of the snark! ;-)

Re:

[norwie2010]

Giles character in the comics is a whole other beast to tackle - as well as all the stuff i wrote about the other characters above. I briefly thought about writing a sequel about the characters and the narrative in the comics, but i guess it would only make me mad like whoah.

Characterization-wise, i think i can best sum it up in the way that the characters in the comics feel like their late-season-4 selves ( mean the general thrust, not every detail). So, Giles regresses back to the state of The Tamer (tm) - only this time he chooses Faith as is project. And only when he succeeds - he bequeathes everything to her. She now carries the male narrative (his legacy) onwards by having internalized her taming