Rape, Abuse, and Marion Zimmer Bradley

[jimhines]

My very first rejection letter was from Marion Zimmer Bradley. It was both harsh and helpful. So I was thrilled when, years later, I made one of my first professional sales to Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Fantasy Magazine. I was even happier when I sold a story to her anthology Sword & Sorceress XXI.

I’m proud of those stories. I believe the Sword &

Comments

[l_o_lostshadows]

even if Breen was indeed an active pedophile, that doesn’t mean he should be expelled from fandom.

*stares at sentence*
*goes off to beat head against wall*

[sylvanstargazer]

This created much of our current fandom, these choices that were made to prioritize "inclusion" of a pedophile over the safety and comfort of other fans. It does explain rather a lot about how we got to where we are.

[tavella]

Yes, this. You can see the direct line of descent to Readercon changing their rules because 'we can't excluse Rene' and Wiscon letting Frenkel not only attend but staff, 'because he's our friend'.

[apis_mellifera]

This. So much this. It's all connected.

[trishalynn]

This was and is my response as well. I also sent a Facebook message to my former sophomore English teacher who was the one who recommended the book to me to let her know and/or gauge her thoughts. No response yet.

[suricattus]

Because of my work-association with many people associated with her, although not MZB herself, I heard rumors about this many years ago - but at the time to my knowledge they were only that, rumors. When people started coming forward...

Yeah. You may separate the artist from the art, but the behavior of the artist as a person still matters. And a predator needs to be isolated from the herd immediately. That's just common goddamned sense.

[mme_n_b]

That makes sense, but following that line of thinking, once the predator is dead and cannot personally benefit, it's ok to start buying their books/watching movies etc. again, right? Which is a good thing, because Dostoyevsky, Gogol etc.

[rhoda_rants]

I saw this elseweb yesterday and was shocked. As much by the awfulness of what she and her husband did as by the drab, "Oh, this is old news, everyone knows about this" reactions of some of the members of the community in which it was posted.

I don't socialize much because of Reasons, but I consider myself a geek, and I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS. Granted, I've never read any MZB, but I had her on my "Sometime, eventually" list for a while. Still--this is NOT common knowledge. And clearly, it needs to be. In more cases than just hers.

From the Silence Is Complicity link:

three is that if you call a friend out on shitty or predatory or abusive behavior that you’re not actually a friend.
I'm actually okay with this? If you're acting shitty and I have to call you out on it, no, I'm NOT your friend, and you need to GTFO. I don't see this as a problem.

Because predators have made themselves valuable to our organizations and made us believe they can’t be replaced.This, this, this

[jimhines]

I think everyone screws up and needs to be called out on it sometimes. I've said stupid stuff before, and will no doubt do so again. But...yeah. There's a huge difference between telling a friend, "Hey, that thing you did was uncool" and discovering that your "friend" is a predator who should be behind bars.

[ckd]

I'm human. I have done and said problematic things, and while I'd like to think I won't ever do so again I am certain that I will, because human.

This means that if my friends call me out on it they are doing me a favor and, in a way, showing their trust in me.

Why?

They're doing me a favor because they're helping me learn to be a better person. If I screw up I want to know about it, so that I can stop screwing up (at least in that way).

They're showing their trust in me because they believe that I want to do better-to be better-and that my behavior will change for the better once I know what I did

[starcat_jewel]

I've been called out on things before by my friends, and I've done the same to them. My take on it is that if I'm doing something that's a problem, I'd rather hear about it from a friend than from the gossip mill. It's not easy to be the one doing the calling-out, but whether or not the person remains my friend afterwards depends on what they do once I've spoken up.

You may be thinking about the high-level predator behavior that's under discussion here and elsewhere. But how much of that might have been averted if those people's friends had spoken up when they first started doing those things?

[nyxalinth]

That is just... I have no words.

Years ago, I tried to read her books, and kept getting a very creepy vibe from them, and from her. I didn't know why. I wonder if there was something pinging just off my radar. I will never try to read anything of hers again.

[tylik]

I think one of the reasons this has been so deeply creepy for friends of mine who loved her work is that they really didn't get this vibe, and that these were works that were hugely meaningful to them and now they're unsure not only if they want to get rid of them all, but if there was some kind of subtle psychological poison they imbibed with the stories they loved

[ethelmay]

Yes. And MZB was used SPECIFICALLY as "Oh, thank god, I am not alone" reading by many gay and lesbian youth. (David Gerrold talked the other day about how important her novel The Catch Trap was to him.) I think that just emphasizes the depth of her betrayal. She had the chance to do SO MUCH GOOD and threw it away. She did stuff that WAS in part good, and put poison in it. (I cannot unmix metaphors when I'm angry, but you get the idea.)

[northernwalker]

I think one of the reasons this has been so deeply creepy for friends of mine who loved her work is that they really didn't get this vibe, and that these were works that were hugely meaningful to them and now they're unsure not only if they want to get rid of them all, but if there was some kind of subtle psychological poison they imbibed with the stories they loved.*

Yes, this. Her books helped influence my spiritual beliefs. Now I'm left feeling like someone who's just discovered their religious leader is evil.