I often like to reevaluate my thoughts on the show...

[gabrielleabelle]

I'm using this icon because it has Sandy. See what I did there?

I've been rewatching S5 and just finished Into the Woods. Predictably, I have some disconnected Buffy/Riley thoughts for you guys

Comments

[rebcake]

Yup, yup, yup. They were not meant to be, wanted different things, and he created problems where there were none (or few). In fairness, there is another incident that could possibly give more credence to Riley's worries, although he might not know about it. In Buffy vs. Dracula, even before Riley gets the full OOMM power-down, Buffy is shown slipping out of bed to go "hunting", which implies that she isn't being fully satisfied by their night-time activities. I don't only mean sex, though that would be the first guess. ;-) Plus, she never does tell him that she loves him. He worked up the courage to tell her the three little words back in Who Are You?, but it was Faith and she reacted badly. Could've been traumatic.

I've always been pretty agnostic on the Buffy/Riley relationship, thinking he's just too innocent or rigid in his thinking for it to work, but my recent rewatch of Doomed made me see him as an actual, full-fledged jerk. When Buffy refuses to go out with him (because there will be too much drama, essentially) he accuses

[gabrielleabelle]

In Buffy vs. Dracula, even before Riley gets the full OOMM power-down, Buffy is shown slipping out of bed to go "hunting", which implies that she isn't being fully satisfied by their night-time activities.

True. Though that kinda leads to Riley being Joe Normal in the world of the Slayer. In Family, he has a bit of a snit when he feels Buffy is holding out on him. And she is. She's (very badly) keeping the Dawn-as-Key thing a secret. This is absolutely understandable why she would do this as the Slayer. But it's a huge blow for Riley that his girlfriend has this dark, kinda secret world that he doesn't have access to.

[samsom]

I'm okay with a no-blame scenario. Sometimes people are just incompatible and it takes a while to suss that out. Riley needed to be what Buffy didn't anymore.

But there is this that Buffy says in Something Blue - an episode that is a portent of Spuffy:

But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting.

Right after this, the scene cuts to Spike. And I've always taken it as a sign that she and Riley were...well...Doomed...because while he had nice arms, and she was no doubt sexually attracted, he still wasn't the type that sparked her. Not like Angel (angsty First Love) or Spike (messy Real Life Love). But if I'm getting what you're saying, then Buffy wasn't looking for what she described to Willow, and she would have been content with Riley if he didn't have those idiotic issues with himself?

[rebcake]

I'm gonna jump in, because I have thoughts. I do think that Buffy would have been content with the relationship for at least a few more years, if Riley had managed to man up and actually be the supportive boyfriend that she thought he was. If nothing dramatic had happened, I don't see her calling it off. She can get her kicks from slaying, so she I don't think she'd miss the fireworks in her domestic arrangements.

Of course, I don't think that they are right for each other, but I can see her settling for him without ever seeing it as "settling". Lots of people do exactly that.

[eilowyn]

I have never seen that comment from Seeing Blue that way. Go you!

[gabrielleabelle]

I'm okay with a no-blame scenario. Sometimes people are just incompatible and it takes a while to suss that out. Riley needed to be what Buffy didn't anymore.

Exactly.

Though I will blame Riley for visiting vamp whores, not apologizing for it, then bailing on Buffy and leaving her the blame for the whole thing. That was douche-y.

But if I'm getting what you're saying, then Buffy wasn't looking for what she described to Willow, and she would have been content with Riley if he didn't have those idiotic issues with himself?

It's a good question. I think Riley was what Buffy needed at that time. I don't know if she would have been contented with a quieter relationship in the long-term. On the other hand, Spuffy was at their healthiest when they were quieter and more supportive (in S7). I kinda think that the "real love and passion w/ pain and fighting" encapsulates more the cultural ideal of Great Romance. Riley shows Buffy maturing past this to an extent, only to take two steps back when she's practically shamed by Riley and Xander

[boot_the_grime]

I tend to think that they were always doomed because they simply were wrong for each other. Riley is very much the traditionally, conventionally manly type, "John Wayne" dude, who likes a strong women but wants to protect her and have her cry on his shoulder as well. And I don't think that's what Buffy really wants - it's just what she thought she was supposed to want, the "normal boyfriend" and "normal life" You can see why they're doomed as early as "Something Blue", when Buffy was just deciding to pursue a relationship with him. The only things she could say about him as reasons why she liked him were "nice arms" and that he is "solid" and "wouldn't cause me pain" (or so she believed). In other words, they had very little in common. Later she finds out he is a fellow demon hunter so they have that in common. Then when he stops being the Initiative guy, that's gone, too

[boot_the_grime]

Riley is very much the traditionally, conventionally manly type, "John Wayne" dude, who likes a strong women but wants to protect her and have her cry on his shoulder as well.

Yeah, which is, I think, why so many guys who watch the show end up liking him - he's something they can identify with. Plus, he's got the whole SuperBond thing going on, another fanboying trait. I really believe that lots of things happening in S4 have to do with the producers wanting to entice male audience - secret government organisations, cool weapons and gadgets, GI Joe Public, I mean, really.

But I'm not going to argue that Riley didn't have reasons to feel the way he did - because I don't believe that Buffy was really Past That Crap, i.e. the idea that "real love and passion go hand in hand with pain and fighting" and ready for a "nice, normal relationship". She was on the rational level, but emotionally, not so much, which subsequent seasons would prove. Thing is, she had trouble finding the middle ground between the two extremes. A relationship

[boot_the_grime]

I wonder what the initial plans for Riley were, and whether they did his S5 arc because they realized that the "perfect guy" thing just wasn't working. I also wonder if things would've been different if they had cast an actor who had any kind of chemistry with SMG.

Agreed, but with a grain of salt, because of the whole not-really-feeling-well-and-like-herself thing that Buffy had after coming back to life. Especially since, when Spike offers his idea of love as something that burns and consumes, she disagrees, so that would indicate that she doesn't reaaly want that, or that that sort of thing isn't enough, just like you said there in the end. I do agree that she has trouble finding the middle ground, though.The fact that Buffy was depressed in S6 is crucial for why she acted on it, but it wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been already there somewhere. She felt she needed some kind of strong feeling - anything - to shake her out of her numbness, but there is a reason why her messed up relationship with Spike was the only thing that

[gabrielleabelle]

I don't know. I think Buffy was genuinely happy with Riley. I have trouble saying she was just with him because he was what she thought she should want.

[alexeia_drae]

So need a Buffy/Riley failed the broccoli test icon.

[gabrielleabelle]

lol! :)

[enigmaticblues]

Word to all of this. I still maintain that Riley is exactly the kind of guy I would have dated in college. Sweet, solid, dependable. I think the problem came in both because he couldn't handle being Joe Normal, and because he essentially gave up his identity to be with Buffy. It was pretty clear in S4 that he liked being a soldier. What did we see him doing in S5? Any time someone gives up a key part of their identity for a relationship, there are going to be some emotional issues to work through, and he couldn't. Or they couldn't. It was a weakness on Riley's part, but it's also a very human failing.

I think, for that reason, I can forgive Riley in the end. I still can't forgive Xander for being such a dick, though.

[gabrielleabelle]

Very, very true. Riley's adrift in S5, and he begins to go off the rails because of it.