Those who are about to be flamed salute you

[cleolinda]

Okay, I'm having to explain a fragmented discussion to so many people that I want to recap it in one place. I am probably going to get my ass kicked for this. I am trying to convince myself that I regret nothing.

I liked The Avengers.

It's cool that you adored The Avengers.

I am not trying to rain on your parade. I am not trying to be that

Comments

[litlover12]

Oh, my. I hadn't heard him say that he was PROUD of it -- certainly not that he was MOST proud of it. That, I agree, is pretty darned disturbing.

[cleolinda]

Yeah... that was the point where the benefit of my doubt dried up.

[effervescent]

I'm actually incredibly fucking disappointed in him for being proud of that. Yay, misogyny? We can argue about characterisation and stuff until we're blue in the face, but the creator is proud that he got that line in. That's the part that really bothers me. :|

[silveraspen]

Seconding this. I read that letter on Whedonesque, and sat there stunned for several long seconds.

The most generous I can be about that is that maybe he was proud about getting it past the censors - sort of a one-up thing - but did we really NEED that to slide on by? Did we REALLY?

It sure as hell shocked me at the time, because I recognized it in the moment, and I jerked back in my seat. But you know, I think I'd have jerked back from the intensity of the scene anyway. I didn't need to hear that level of vile gendered insult to get the point.

And Joss didn't need to write it.

[moongirli]

I did hear it, and was a bit stunned, because it is so archaic. (No one else I was with, including several other women, seemed to catch it or take note.) However, I think, knowing Whedon's sense of humor, he's probably not serious about being most proud of it.

[cleolinda]

I don't think he's legit for-real serious about being most proud, but given that I was expecting him to ignore any complaints about it entirely, or maybe sort of insist that it was okay and we just didn't understand his meaning or intention, I was surprised that he doubled down on it as something to single out as a good thing. Particularly since this movie's version of the Hulk really is something he could be proud of.

[moongirli]

Agreed on the Hulk. I'd read that he'd wanted to make this Hulk a bit more like the 70s TV show Hulk, and I think it went well.

That said, I see your point about his remarks.

[cleolinda]

I guess it's one of those "tone on the internet" things. Like, I get that the blog entry was very tongue-in-cheek, but unless I actually hear him use a tone that doesn't say, "I am very proud of sneaking an obscure epithet past the censors so that now the masses have a brand-new vulgarity to play with, and also the emotional, artistic and technological achievement of our Hulk," I can only think that's what he means. I mean, maybe there's a tone that says, "I'm actually kind of sheepish that I did that, and/or it's such a not-big deal that I don't really want to draw attention to it--but I really am proud of our Hulk," but I don't know what it would sound like.

[violetfrosting]

I missed any furore, having read your review early and not gone through all the comments. However, I agree that that particular insult was a bit much. I was frankly shocked that they got that into a 12A movie in the first place. Like "wanker" it's considerably stronger in the UK than elsewhere and I was very surprised to hear it come up

[cleolinda]

Yeah, I wouldn't have even thought it was over the top if he'd written something like "puling mortal" or "Thou mewling hell-hated foot-licker!" or whatever. A sexual insult just took it to a really strange, uncomfortable level in a PG-13 movie.

[mysticowl]

The line itself didn't bother me, but Whedon saying he's proud of it does. (Even if it [his pride in the "achievement"] might've been meant in a somewhat joking manner? I'm not sure.)

I'm not particularly bothered by crude language in general, that's probably why I wasn't bothered by its use in the film, it's Whedon's "I introduced a new linguistic quirk into pop culture" attitude that rubs me the wrong way: Mr. Whedon, our culture doesn't need any more ways to insult women for being women. We're pretty much covered on that front, thanks.

[litlover12]

Yeah. That attitude strikes me as all kinds of wrong.

[greyduck]

...it's Whedon's "I introduced a new linguistic quirk into pop culture" attitude that rubs me the wrong way: Mr. Whedon, our culture doesn't need any more ways to insult women for being women. We're pretty much covered on that front, thanks.

You just nailed it, right to the wall, Luther's-thesis-style.

Loved the movie, but, man. Things like this aren't exactly winning me over to the Whedon-fanboy side, you know?

[cleolinda]

Just as a side note--I read the most amazing thing the other week (a discussion of female grooming, NSFW) where a writer pointed out,

For Italian men... The vagina for them is a prize, a beautiful flower to be admired and won, not as in the United States, a term of disdain, a cunt. In Rome a vagina is una fica, a term deriving from the fig, a great thing, a delightful gift, a ribboned fruit. Among young Romans, the expression fica is a way to convey something extraordinarily good, akin to “cool.” They even make it into a superlative-fichissimo, meaning that something is the “cuntest” and very good indeed. Una fica is not only a sexually attractive woman, it is anything worthy of possession or experience. Imagine an American guy saying: “Wow, that is so vagina!” You can’t.

You totally can't.