I have had this conversation so many times

[candid]

First, from the Saddleback Forum:WARREN: Now, you’ve made no doubts about your faith in Jesus Christ. What does that mean to you? What does it mean to you to trust in Christ? And what does that mean to you on a daily basis? What does that really look like

Comments

[aldoushuxley]

That stuff about him being (or not) at Columbia is odd. Someone would have remembered him if he had really gone there.

[fishsupreme]

You know, I don't think it's odd. Looking at the link, I see this:

[...]there would have been a total of roughly 50 other students who sat with Barack Obama in small, discussion heavy seminars in which the articulate Barack Obama is likely to have been the only black student. And he would have spent two full semesters with half these students for about 4 hours a week. The only 6'2" Afro sporting, well spoken, East African featured, unusually named, black student. I find it highly unlikely that nobody out of this pool of seminar classmates would remember him.

I was a political science major at Indiana University. Poli Sci is not a large department there; probably smaller than Columbia's. I was in a lot of small, discussion-heavy seminars, most a lot smaller than 50 people -- probably closer to 10-20. I'm only 31, and started college a year late, so this was only 8 years ago. I remember only one person from all of my poli sci classes; not coincidentally, she (a goth Marxist, of all things) is the only person in those classes I

[infopractical]

You not being able to remember somebody in one of your classes is very different from roughly 50 other people not remembering somebody who was in class with all of them. People aren't congruent round spheres all possessing the same properties. For instance, I met 37 members of my wife's family over a roughly 24 hour period and knew all of their names -- she doesn't even know all of their names. I think it's likely that somebody in the room would take that much of an interest.

You're further trying hard to make your story congruent: I'm sure many of them were well spoken, a few of them were black, and some probably had unusual names. But since people are incongruent, you're only supporting the point that somebody probably would have recognized him -- he might not have stood out in your class, but by that quoted description of the scene at Columbia, it seems even more likely that the person who takes an interest in knowing the people around them would key on him instantly.

[infopractical]

Just to be clear, I want to add that I don't doubt that Obama went to Columbia, but for a distinct set of reasons.

[perich]

"I bet he's a closet atheist"

That's terrifically dumb.

[infopractical]

I tend to think this about people in power whom I guess have higher than average IQs even among people with lots of power. This presupposed that most people in power are playing the game of the Wizard -- ruling over Oz by manipulating illusions.

But this view makes us

(1) conspiracy theorists
(2) paranoid
(3) moral elitists
(4) hated by virtually everyone in the world

Perhaps its best not to say such things out loud?

[perich]

That's terrifically dumb.

[anne_keckler]

Most people's attachment to or hatred of political figures is about as rational sports team partisanship.

Ha ha! I just made the same comparison a few days ago!

http://anne-keckler.livejournal.com/144340.html

[other]

Obama has an interesting speech on faith and pluralism if you haven't checked it out.

[irrationalrobot]

ditto.

Obama probably is a religious nut if you define "religious nut" as "person who believes in the Jesus Zombie." OTOH, he can practice his brand of religious belief without making policies based on it.

From the above link: This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all. Regarding Obama's specific profession of faith at Saddleback: the call to renewal keynote also helps explain why he was there in the first place- because he was tired of Democrats conceding the "religious" card to conservative republicans every other year, and

[candid]

Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values.

This may be a nice soundbite, but it isn't true in the slightest. Democracy (in its purest form) demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into values shared by at least 51% of the electorate. I am pretty sure no one in congress sits around thinking about how to get "the atheists" on board with their big government scheme-of-the-day.

if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

Four things. One, this is another soundbite that's simply not true. God's will gets invoked plenty in politics. Plenty.

Second, there is no such "principle" shared by everyone (which can be observed by the wide spectrum of beliefs regarding its legality), and so hypothetical reliance on one as a

[irrationalrobot]

Overview: Obama is clearly talking about his political philosophy, and how his religious beliefs inform that (or not). He's not describing the world as it exists, but rather how he behaves and why. At the same time (and here is where I think I'm starting to get what you're talking about), it is pretty clear from his rhetoric that he's also saying, "Gee, I wish more people thought this way

[malathion]

Atheists and freethinkers should be falling over themselves to vote for Obama.

[infopractical]

freethinkers should be falling over themselves to X.

I could comment, but I hope it's not necessary.

[malathion]

I think you already did

[infopractical]

Yes, I did. After a little consideration I decided that the best thing to do with such forceful Orwellian doublethink offered up in earnest is...to point it out to as many people as possible so that hopefully they don't fall into the same trap.