The Irresistible Woman's Magic Hoo Hoo Tames the Untamable Mighty Wang

[amonitrate]

Either my google-foo is failing me or there is nothing about fandom and rape culture out there. Enough has been written on outright rape, and on non-con and dub-con, but nothing that I've found about that grey area I want to talk about. More searching required, and I should probably read about dub-con a bit.

There is some material about romance

Comments

[juniperphoenix]

Hmmmm. This may not be exactly the grey area you're looking for, but sheafrotherdon is collecting resources here that may be of interest.

[amonitrate]

excellent, thank you, I"m sure there's good stuff there. I should probably narrow my searching to consent issues, because I think that's at the heart of what I'm talking about, but it's a little more nebulous than that. Hrm. Thanks!

[liviapenn]

One of the vaguely original things I think fandom does with rape fantasy (and one of the things that I think distinguishes "non-con" as a kink from "rape fantasy") is the whole "sex pollen" idea

[amonitrate]

I don't know, I haven't read much sex pollen fic. The one I remember clearly was X-Files (more an Aliens Made Us fic, but same idea), and it left me really skeeved out, but at least the author allowed there to be some fallout from it. But that was, god, fifteen years ago probably, so details are hazy.

I guess by the very nature, sex-pollen fic admits to consent issues, so I'm not so concerned with it. As you point out, it does have some real-life parallels that can be dangerous. I'm more interested in stuff where the consent issues are ignored/denied.

Sex-pollen and body swap sex are grey areas I'll probably not get to, as they are more complex with the consent issues. But it's good to be reminded of them as related. And they're interesting to discuss.

[liviapenn]

As you point out, it does have some real-life parallels that can be dangerous. I'm more interested in stuff where the consent issues are ignored/denied.

Huh. I guess then I'm curious as to what exactly you see as unique about *fandom's* expression of/interaction with rape culture? I mean, it seems to me like the stuff you pointed out in that one Tony/Pepper story that disturbed you-- well, honestly, it isn't something that stands out to me as particularly *fannish*, but a pretty standard reproduction of romance novel "seduction." In other words, just the regular fucked up-ness of the *world* in general, not anything specifically fannish. "This is totally consensual because she ended up enjoying the sex!" or "this is totally consensual because he loves her!" -- you find that everywhere, not just in fandom or romance novels or even *fiction*, much as we'd all prefer otherwise.

[amonitrate]

nope, i don't think it's anything unique about fandom at all - and that's actually my point, by linking it to rape culture. Which I realize is a hot button thing to say, but I'm not sure how to say it nicely.

I just haven't seen it talked about anywhere within fandom. Yeah, I've seen it called out of character, I've seen it discussed as more or less creepy/unhealthy what have you, but it hasn't, as far as I've found, been linked to how this stuff plays out in real life. The fic is just following the patterns we're socialized to follow -- there's nothing special about it at all. I want to discuss that part, given that in fic we can write the characters any way we want to, and yet this is how we choose to write them, this repeating of the unhealthy stuff in real life, even when it totally contradicts canon characterization. Which is inevitable, I realize, but it's interesting to me

[deiseach]

Hmmm. Read a lot of the Old Skool romances (the Mills and Boon ones over here on this side of the Atlantic) in the 80s around the age of fifteen and there was one that had a near-rape scenario in it which definitely turned me off

[amonitrate]

I haven't actually read any romance, so it's all new to me.

Maybe that has something to do with it turning up in romance novels - handsome hero makes virtuous heroine have sex and enjoy it, but that doesn't make her a slut, because he forced her.

Yes, this exactly, and much of the stuff I've found on the trope in romance novels explains it this way. It makes sense.

I dunno. I like some dubcon and noncon stories myself, but that certainly doesn't mean I approve of rape, or that if the scenario in the story happened in real life I would do anything other than call the police (or go for the guy with the breadknife).

Yeah, and I don't really have a problem with them either, mostly. Because most of them are aware of the consent issues from the outset -- I'm more interested in the stuff where writers are either unaware of or deny that there are in fact consent issues going on.

And it certainly is problematic if it's being presented as anything approaching normal in relationships. That's where I want to focus. Which is why I quoted this

[deiseach]

"Which is why I quoted this passage in depth, because take out the rape part and this describes quite a bit of het romance I've read of late

[amonitrate]

Yeah, I figure there will be/is vehement disagreement. There already was.

But yes - if the assumption is that men are helpless before a woman's sexual allure and so can't be blamed for losing control, and that moreover this is a compliment, then it is problematic.

It's not just that I find it problematic, it's not even in character, you know? But yeah, the problematic part is interesting to me.

And yes, it totally plays out in slash as well as het.

[splash_the_cat]

This may be something along the lines of what you're looking for - I posted a while back based around some stuff that went on in SG-1 on the rape/dubious consent as romance: http://splash-the-cat.livejournal.com/155625.html

[amonitrate]

nice, thank you!

[hafital]

I love that book. It's very silly, but quite useful when newly navigating romance novels.

[amonitrate]

I liked the stuff I read! I liked the mix of silly and serious concepts.