Pieces of God

[zophiel666]

My co-worker, we'll call her Ali, is a very ardent atheist. She and I talk quite often, and I think she forgets that I am very much not an atheist, I think because I don't fit her image of an "ardent believer"-- likely, in that I'm not always quoting the Bible, not always talking to her about Jesus, and am, in her words, "very intelligent."  We'll

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[zophiel666]

Wiser people than I have long wondered this same thing, but here's my attempt at understanding:

I think that there are two related causes for this skittishness on their part, and these two things would be 1)flexibility and 2)pride.

The first, flexibility, has a lot to do with Pascal's Gamble. He said that he would rather believe in God and be wrong, than not believe, and be wrong. This very statement addresses one of the weakest points of atheism, as commonly understood. It is one thing to be an agnostic, and simply say "Don't know, don't care." This is hard to argue. But to be an atheist is to Care very much, and to involve a certainty far greater than any Deist needs. After all, if the Deist is wrong, he'll simply be disappointed, if anything at all. But if the Atheist is wrong. . .

Because of this, the Deist has some flexibility regarding belief in God, but the Atheist has none. The Atheist believes that there is No Creator, no Great Divinity. Shadow is shadow, it cannot by broken into colors, or bend around corners, like light. Atheism, like darkness, is absolute. And so, an Atheist must be perfectly right, or completely wrong. A Deist or even agnostic can handle more ambiguity. "Maybe," says the Deist "Jesus was God. Or not. Or maybe is was Krisna, or Maybe it's all about Moshe, or . . ." A Deist can wonder, an Atheist cannot.

This brings in the second thing, Pride. Deists get into arguments all the time, and most have learned to live with the fact that everyone understands the Divine in different ways. The Christian understands that neither Jews not Muslims believe in the Divinity of Christ. Christians can read about the Sufis and the Kabbalists and get inspired. Jews and Muslims can read about Mother Theresa, and be inspired. At our best of times, our dialogue deepens our own understanding of the Divine. Every encounter with the numinous outside our own system brings humility and inspiration.

For an atheist, the mere continuation of belief among educated, intelligent minds is an insult. Most atheists pride themselves on being so much smarter than all those "superstitious people", that when another intelligent person doesn't agree with their atheism, they are threatened. The mere fact of that person's beliefs belies the connection of intelligence with atheism. No longer can that person maintain their Disbelief, unless they convince the Intelligent Deist to forsake their beliefs. And so the Atheist will often attack religion and spirituality every chance he can, oftimes also insulting the intelligence of the believer.

Only, the Intelligent Deist persists in believing, which frustrates the Atheist to no end! The belief is unassailible, further undermining the Atheist's stability.

Together, Pascal's bet and this persistence of belief place the atheist in an uncomfortable spot. Few Atheists are able to maintain the security of their non-beliefs, so soon, any hint of belief becomes the pricking of a concience they do not wish to hear. They dare not be wrong, due to the greatness of the consequences. And yet, every time an intelligent person says "I believe in God", it is another blow to their thinking.

For them, to allow an inch to a thing, is to surrender completely to it. And so it must be fought everywhere it is found. An atheist cannot allow a shred of Belief to exist, because that tiny shred mocks and threatens his belief.

Granted, there are some atheists who do not behave thusly, because those few are, in fact, secure in their beliefs. But most are not, for the reasons given. Like with insecure Christians or Pagans or Muslims.

[**Also, by Deist I'm don't mean just formal Deism, as the conglomeration of all those who believe in some sort of Divinity.**]

In terms of my friend, I find it interesting that she derides Christians who get tetchy about Chocolate Jesus' or Movies of Questionable Repute, but then cannot even watch the Matrix or anything that has any hints of anything theological. Not seeing that she's being even less tolerant than they.

Hm.

[madmaggie]

And veritably you stated exactly what I was thinking (surprise surprise)...It takes a certain amount of fervor to swear off movies that may have a thread of religious-ness to them, and in some way that itself is giving creedence to the existance of a religio-deity.

I just find atheists so peculiar. Agnostics I can at least understand, "we know there is a God, but we're bitter so we're not talking". No problem, I understand. Atheists, however, refuse to believe in mostly everything. I don't think I have met an atheist yet, though I am sure they exist, that believes in anything that they can not rationalize. Maybe they have not realized that human emotion itself is not rational, that as humans we exist in a kind of harmonic dischord that in itself may not ever make any sense to another human.

Hmmm...this is much to contemplate. I have tried, just for kicks and knowledge's sake, to not believe. But, I can't, which maybe is bizarre all in itself. Even if I sit around with all of the information I have gathered in 25 years and rationalize that God does not exist I still do not believe it. Which leads me to believe that for some, maybe most, faith is something that can be etched into being into one's soul. I'm sure an atheist would most likely see it as a defect of the mind since the soul does not exist. And damn...that's a whole mess of people, from all walks of life, race, and creed, with one hell of a genetic defect.

[pantherrrrea]

I would say that being an atheist is a sad way to live, isn't it? If you don't believe in any deity and that you have soul, then the life doesn't have a big meaning and then there is the question why do they live? What gives them hope?
I cannot imagine to be an atheist as I know that something exists, that something will BE there after death and that it won't be the end when I die...

[zophiel666]

I would agree. There's a hollow sort of despair at the very thought that there's nothing there. Some atheists say that the Meaning of Life is whatever we give to it. This stikes some as very deep, but comes across as very narcissistic to me. . . This idea that we are the greatest thing existing. *shudders*

In the meantime, I will agree with that eminent theologian, Puddleglum, who, in The Silver Chair has the following to say:

"Suppose... suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones. And if this black pits of a kingdom is the best you can make, then it's a poor world. And we four can make a dream world to lick your real one hollow.
. . .As for me, I shall live like a Narnian even if there isn't any Narnia. "

This is not, contrary to what might be the initial impression, against the grain of the truth-seeking of The Matrix. The problem with the Matrix, aside from being an illusion, was that it was a meaningless illusion, a prison for slaves. Neo's quest for the real world initially takes him to a place less comfortable than the illusion, but this place is distiguished for it's freedom and meaningfulness. At the end of the third movie, he continues his quest to find the Source, moving yet higher in creation, above the physical level (following, as ever, the lead of Trinity).

Puddleglum and Neo would agree that the best place to be is the place with meaning-- where there is challenge, growth, and freedom-- whether that be Narnia or the deep caverns of Zion. And there is always more challenge, growth, and freedom when you are not wrapped up in your own narcissism, when there is something Greater to hold to and to aspire to.

And as you say, Pantherrrea, if there is nothing greater, what of Death? Is he the dread ending? Or the guide to a Greater Place than even this? The dead are gone forever?

I don't buy it. Life energy comes from somewhere--this is why, even with all our science, we have yet to create life from scratch. Life energy must also go somewhere, else why is it so hard to restart the dead? No, atheism is essentially irrational, it seems to me. . .because there is so much it cannot account for. . .

[pantherrrrea]

well said *applause*
What I cannot imagine is to not see movies, read books only because there is a glimpse of something religious. but then wo/man doesn't have to read a book or watch a movie to see little glimpses of a Creator. His/Hers little signs are everywhere for open-minded people to see.
...to think that people are the best think that ever happened *shudder* ever heard of pollution, of WWII? If I was the best think that ever happened then world would be truly damned *chuckle*

I fully agree that there is life energy.. imagine yourself sitting in a room reading a book you love and listening to music through headphones. You cannot hear and the book has pulled you in the story but nevertheless of these facts you can feel when somebody comes to the room and is looking at you for a longer time. So if the person doesn't vibrate something how is it possible to feel the presence of somebody?

Or if somebody you know died and you see his body, you feel that nobody is in, that the body is empty, that the person isn't there anymore. I can't believe that this essence/soul doesn't exist anymore...

What I think about atheist is another matter altogether. I think that they are afraid. Afraid that somebody has more power over them then they themselvs, they are afraid of death, of miracles. And that together with a life without hope is pretty sad to me.

I like the way you think and your view of life. And I haven't had a good debate in a looong time so I'm really pleased that I have found you on LJ *smile*

[madmaggie]

Hallo ^_^ I agree and believe you are correct that atheists are people that are very afraid of life and living. I like being able to feel full joy, sadness, passion, and not being so afraid that I may be connected to a being much greater than myself.

[zophiel666]

we exist in a kind of harmonic dischord

ohh, that's lovely . . . hmmm . . .

There are some who believe that religious belief is in fact a genetric trait, something that evolved in humans as a way of, I guess, keeping pack structure stable. Actually, I'm not sure what purpose it would have, save to inspire paintings on cave walls. But even if it is encoded into our DNA. . . how the hell did that happen? Unless, someone reached down and said "I will inscribe My Name into your DNA. . ."

[pantherrrrea]

if you believe that it was encoded in our DNA I'd say that it was put there because many poeple would be unable to believe.... no they would be so engrossed in their own little/big problems that they wouldn't think about anything else only about themselfs. So it was put there to guarantee that people think about the Creator, about life after death and of course it could have been put there to assure that people have hope. Many, many people without hope cannot carry on with living. And this is why I cannot understand atheist. How can they live without hope?

[madmaggie]

Now that you put it that way, perhaps atheists have the genetic incompletion? Why must it be assumed that the believers must have genetic fallacy. I agree with both of what you have said. :) I think hope in something, anything, "brighter" and better than what we have is a blessing and can never be considered a waste.

Even if one were to go along with atheistic principle and conclude that the mind creates all things, why would someone want to have a mind that refuses to create beyond the life of itself? To never create anything more beautiful or greater, to be confind to the box of the world around us and only what we see.

I think, truly, that if I am completely wrong and naive in believing in a supreme being, an afterlife, or anything sacred, I would rather live with my fictional world than in the bleak existance I see around me.