Blues on a boat
Hi LJ.
It's been a long time. Hopefully this extended entry full of love, lust, drama, mystery, novelty, and cultural judgement makes up for it.
In early February, on a dating site, I found a woman who looked like a remarkably good match. (Henceforth referred to as The Crush.) Intellectual and smart, sex-positive and compatible in all the right kinky, non-monogamous ways, cultured and worldly, into clear communication, 5th generation massage therapist, graduate-level bio-scientist, dancer, eloquent, same MBTI as me, wants kids in the next 5-or-so years. And she lives in silicon valley and works for a high-tech company.
I was more excited about her than anyone I'd met in quite a while. On paper, she met all of my requirements, and wants, and the nice-to-haves. I couldn't have asked for more.
We corresponded a bit, and spent about 8 hours on the phone over about 4 phone calls. We got along fairly well, though she expressed reservations about the distance and how do you get to know someone well enough, from this far, for one of us to choose to move. That was where we'd left it, unresolved, after phone call 3 when I'd asked what she thought about a visit. My logic around a face-to-face meeting was that as resourceful, smart folks, if we really had chemistry, we would figure it out, and besides, if we never met I'd always wonder.
In between calls 3 & 4 I sent an email suggesting that I visit the weekend of March 6th, we'd have dinner, she could take me out dancing. I'd stay with friends, and there'd be no expectation of making a weekend of it, just an evening.
She wrote back saying she couldn't do a visit that particular weekend, as she'd be on a cruise ship with a group of blues dancers friday through monday, but there might still be room if I was interested in coming along. I'd been blues dancing exactly twice at that point, with a third night on the calendar. A fair bit of blues dancing follows naturally from swing dancing, which I did a lot of in the late '90s, so it wasn't an unreasonable suggestion. We talked that afternoon and at the time I didn't know what to make of the cruise, and wasn't quite into it. After that call a friend said "Why not go?" and I realized that it would be a fun event, and a chance to meet her in a casual, social, low pressure setting.
I emailed the organizer, verified that there was room (in a cabin shared with 3 folks I didn't know; Crush was sharing a room with a friend of hers, and another couple she knew were coming down from the bay area also), and chatted with the Crush at work the next day, verifying that it was in fact OK with her that I came along on this trip where I wouldn't know anyone else, in effect crashing her vacation. She said it was fine, and that we probably shouldn't think of it as a 4-day date, as that would be weird. I agreed, and said I couldn't even sit next to a date for 3 hours of dancing, nevermind 3 days, and had "no expectations," except that I'd like to have a dance with her, and maybe breakfast or chat or something. She said she hoped we'd have several dances. This was all the weekend of Feb 22nd, and early the following week.
We didn't talk much at all that week. For our entire interaction I'd been trying to give her plenty of space, be respectful of her time and busy schedule and such. She IM'd me Thursday night before boarding; I'd come down to LA that day and stayed with a friend. She and her friends were flying down Friday morning and going directly to the ship. We exchanged room numbers and agreed to meet on the ship at some point.
I found her at dinner that first (Friday) night. She got up, hugged me, and introduced me to the 3 friends she'd come down with. We made plans to hang out the next day for our trip ashore in Ensenada. We danced some that night, which was perfectly pleasant. I gave her plenty of space.
The next day, late morning, we 5 met up and went ashore to Ensenada. (Ensenada, or at least the part of it we saw, was unfortunately touristy. I found it a bit depressing.) We looked at the tourist stuff, got a recommendation, and went to a non-touristy restaurant for lunch. The food was good, fish tacos, tuna ceviche, shrimp, mahi-mahi filets with cilantro sauce, flan. After lunch we all wandered around shopping and browsing. (I didn't buy anything.) Many pictures were taken. That afternoon it rained a bit so I gave her my jacket. She asked if that was really OK, and I assured her (truthfully) that between* my wool shirt, Portland upbringing, and Russian blood, I'd be fine and comfortable in a little rain. The entire time she was perfectly friendly, kind, inclusive, and considerate. She and her friends were tactile, huggy, snuggly people, and I was comfortably, naturally, included in that. And there was not a single bit of acknowledgement of any (potential) romantic context on her part.
* Yes, I know that it's "among" for > 2 items, but that seemed wrong.
Dinner and dancing that night was the same: cordial, friendly, platonic. The few times I attempted to discuss the situation or make allusions to the fact that I was there to meet her were met with minimal response on her part. That made every overture (and there weren't many) even more weird, as I felt even more like I was imposing by asking about it. By bedtime I was clear that there was no potential at all.
We didn't see each other daytime Sunday; we did different things on the boat. Dinner and dancing that night was much like Saturday: pleasant, unremarkable. While dancing she did mention that she hadn't realized I was so new to blues dancing when she'd invited me along, and I truthfully reassured her that I was having a lovely time dancing and it wasn't a problem.
I crossed paths briefly with her and her friends as we were all disembarking Monday morning. There were quick hugs all around, and that was that.
Clearly we didn't fall madly in love and live happily ever after, or even have a brief, passionate fling on a boat. So what happened?
My internal analysis goes like this. Recently, my good friend T asked why I was going on 3-4 dates with women, when I wasn't super excited after the first date, and I said "Well, maybe if I get to know them a bit…" T asked me how long it took me, historically, to be into the women I was really into, and I replied "Usually somewhere between them walking into the room and 'Hello.' Maybe as long as the end of the first conversation." But really, if I don't feel the spark right away it never arrives. That's been true for every girlfriend I've had, and pretty much all of the women I've dated for shorter periods of time too. If the spark isn't there for me initially, it's not going to show up. (Mind you, it doesn't mean that I'm going to date or have dated the woman in question every time there's a spark - far from it. The spark is necessary, but not sufficient.)
As far as I can tell, our brains work in fairly similar ways, based on having the same MBTI and a few other similarities. Given that supposition, my guess is that the distance was a real non-starter for her. She was going along with my requests and suggestions in an attempt to see what would happen, much like I'd gone on 3-4 dates with some women I wasn't feeling "sparky" about, but fundamentally I was in the "not going to happen" bucket from the beginning. That was a manageable dissonance from a distance, but in person her ambivalence resolved itself and it was all over.
Clearly I bear a lot of responsibility for the whole situation. I let my optimism convince me that a bit of reassurance and in-person chemistry would assuage her stated doubts, instead of interpreting "I'm not sure" as the actual "I'm not interested." I gave her too much credit and benefit of the doubt with respect to her communication skills, and read too much into her text-based smiles and hugs, and thanks at the end of each phone call. And I did push the interaction forward, which seemed more about the gender dynamic and the fact that I was the pursuer, and not about her disinterest.
Or maybe she just didn't feel any attraction in person. Who knows?
What did I learn? Historically I simply don't pursue women who aren't interested in being pursued. This was an intentional exception to that, because it seemed like the potential match and goodness and upside was so good. Lesson learned, if they're not into it, it's not worth the time and effort. I want someone who's ready and willing to engage actively in the process and recognize what I've got to offer (again, that's necessary, but not sufficient).
And as always, listen to what they're saying, and ask for clarity. I've gotten better about being clear and communicating clearly about where I'm at and what I want. I've got to remember that it's hard, still, for me, and is for most other folks too.
Beyond that, long distance relationships have never appealed to me. I was willing to make an exception in this case, again due to the potential upside. But I think situations where I can't meet someone fairly early on are a bad idea.
I haven't contacted her yet, though I intend to in a few days. I'd like to think an actual friendship is possible once we get this elephant out of the room. I'm also going to mention that, for future reference, inviting someone to travel 1,000 miles and take a boat to another country probably isn't a good strategy for turning down dinner.
So there it is. I'm sure I've left out some important details, but this will have to do for now. Hope everyone's curiosity is mostly satisfied. Go look at the pictures on FB for more fun.
======
Thoughts on cruise ships
Cruise ships are weird.
This particular cruise attracted a some loud drunk types, frat boys and bachelorette parties and such. Not everyone was a rowdy drunk, but it doesn't take too many to color a social space, and I expect the weekend trips to Mexico tend to be booked by the partier types. They weren't everywhere, but did tend to congregate at the bars and hot tubs.
The ship itself is pretty much a gaudy hotel on the water, complete with a casino, several bars, and a few different restaurants. The food is all free, alcohol and pop are not. The decor was terrible and gaudy in some parts and merely inoffensive in others.
The food was mostly "fancy" american style, pancakes and eggs and meat at the buffet for breakfast, steak available for every dinner, not much in the way of salad, and those available mostly feature iceberg lettuce. Some of it was good, most was thoroughly unremarkable. Funny note, with an infinite supply of free (mediocre) food, 24 hours a day, I tended to put less on my plate than I otherwise might, because there was not a chance of scarcity. Between the food and dancing, I think I actually lost weight on the cruise.
The ship was always in motion, however subtle. Mostly you didn't notice it. Sometimes it was like being a bit tipsy, a little unstable as you walked from here to there, or just feeling it internally as you sat. You could see it in your water glass. Mostly it wasn't an issue when dancing, because we were in motion anyway, but when the ship was really moving it was kind of fun to dance, because it added an element of surprise, like the ship was leading all of the dancers. The constant motion did add an element of physical unsettledness to the trip, like always being just 2% sick.
Sleeping on board was difficult for me. Aside from the constant, subtle motion and the complications of a racing mind, the comings and goings of my cabin-mates and hallway noise was difficult to deal with. Earplugs and an eye mask FTpartialW. Naps were hard to schedule around cabin-mates. I didn't feel rested the entire trip.
Funny thing: the cheap rooms, closer to the water line and internal to the boat (like mine) are nearest the axis of rotation of the ship, while the more expensive rooms on the upper decks with windows are further from the axis, and therefore are going to experience the most motion.
I suspect a different sort of cruise on a different ship or cruise line would present another experience. I'm not convinced I'll test that theory anytime soon.
It's been a long time. Hopefully this extended entry full of love, lust, drama, mystery, novelty, and cultural judgement makes up for it.
In early February, on a dating site, I found a woman who looked like a remarkably good match. (Henceforth referred to as The Crush.) Intellectual and smart, sex-positive and compatible in all the right kinky, non-monogamous ways, cultured and worldly, into clear communication, 5th generation massage therapist, graduate-level bio-scientist, dancer, eloquent, same MBTI as me, wants kids in the next 5-or-so years. And she lives in silicon valley and works for a high-tech company.
I was more excited about her than anyone I'd met in quite a while. On paper, she met all of my requirements, and wants, and the nice-to-haves. I couldn't have asked for more.
We corresponded a bit, and spent about 8 hours on the phone over about 4 phone calls. We got along fairly well, though she expressed reservations about the distance and how do you get to know someone well enough, from this far, for one of us to choose to move. That was where we'd left it, unresolved, after phone call 3 when I'd asked what she thought about a visit. My logic around a face-to-face meeting was that as resourceful, smart folks, if we really had chemistry, we would figure it out, and besides, if we never met I'd always wonder.
In between calls 3 & 4 I sent an email suggesting that I visit the weekend of March 6th, we'd have dinner, she could take me out dancing. I'd stay with friends, and there'd be no expectation of making a weekend of it, just an evening.
She wrote back saying she couldn't do a visit that particular weekend, as she'd be on a cruise ship with a group of blues dancers friday through monday, but there might still be room if I was interested in coming along. I'd been blues dancing exactly twice at that point, with a third night on the calendar. A fair bit of blues dancing follows naturally from swing dancing, which I did a lot of in the late '90s, so it wasn't an unreasonable suggestion. We talked that afternoon and at the time I didn't know what to make of the cruise, and wasn't quite into it. After that call a friend said "Why not go?" and I realized that it would be a fun event, and a chance to meet her in a casual, social, low pressure setting.
I emailed the organizer, verified that there was room (in a cabin shared with 3 folks I didn't know; Crush was sharing a room with a friend of hers, and another couple she knew were coming down from the bay area also), and chatted with the Crush at work the next day, verifying that it was in fact OK with her that I came along on this trip where I wouldn't know anyone else, in effect crashing her vacation. She said it was fine, and that we probably shouldn't think of it as a 4-day date, as that would be weird. I agreed, and said I couldn't even sit next to a date for 3 hours of dancing, nevermind 3 days, and had "no expectations," except that I'd like to have a dance with her, and maybe breakfast or chat or something. She said she hoped we'd have several dances. This was all the weekend of Feb 22nd, and early the following week.
We didn't talk much at all that week. For our entire interaction I'd been trying to give her plenty of space, be respectful of her time and busy schedule and such. She IM'd me Thursday night before boarding; I'd come down to LA that day and stayed with a friend. She and her friends were flying down Friday morning and going directly to the ship. We exchanged room numbers and agreed to meet on the ship at some point.
I found her at dinner that first (Friday) night. She got up, hugged me, and introduced me to the 3 friends she'd come down with. We made plans to hang out the next day for our trip ashore in Ensenada. We danced some that night, which was perfectly pleasant. I gave her plenty of space.
The next day, late morning, we 5 met up and went ashore to Ensenada. (Ensenada, or at least the part of it we saw, was unfortunately touristy. I found it a bit depressing.) We looked at the tourist stuff, got a recommendation, and went to a non-touristy restaurant for lunch. The food was good, fish tacos, tuna ceviche, shrimp, mahi-mahi filets with cilantro sauce, flan. After lunch we all wandered around shopping and browsing. (I didn't buy anything.) Many pictures were taken. That afternoon it rained a bit so I gave her my jacket. She asked if that was really OK, and I assured her (truthfully) that between* my wool shirt, Portland upbringing, and Russian blood, I'd be fine and comfortable in a little rain. The entire time she was perfectly friendly, kind, inclusive, and considerate. She and her friends were tactile, huggy, snuggly people, and I was comfortably, naturally, included in that. And there was not a single bit of acknowledgement of any (potential) romantic context on her part.
* Yes, I know that it's "among" for > 2 items, but that seemed wrong.
Dinner and dancing that night was the same: cordial, friendly, platonic. The few times I attempted to discuss the situation or make allusions to the fact that I was there to meet her were met with minimal response on her part. That made every overture (and there weren't many) even more weird, as I felt even more like I was imposing by asking about it. By bedtime I was clear that there was no potential at all.
We didn't see each other daytime Sunday; we did different things on the boat. Dinner and dancing that night was much like Saturday: pleasant, unremarkable. While dancing she did mention that she hadn't realized I was so new to blues dancing when she'd invited me along, and I truthfully reassured her that I was having a lovely time dancing and it wasn't a problem.
I crossed paths briefly with her and her friends as we were all disembarking Monday morning. There were quick hugs all around, and that was that.
Clearly we didn't fall madly in love and live happily ever after, or even have a brief, passionate fling on a boat. So what happened?
My internal analysis goes like this. Recently, my good friend T asked why I was going on 3-4 dates with women, when I wasn't super excited after the first date, and I said "Well, maybe if I get to know them a bit…" T asked me how long it took me, historically, to be into the women I was really into, and I replied "Usually somewhere between them walking into the room and 'Hello.' Maybe as long as the end of the first conversation." But really, if I don't feel the spark right away it never arrives. That's been true for every girlfriend I've had, and pretty much all of the women I've dated for shorter periods of time too. If the spark isn't there for me initially, it's not going to show up. (Mind you, it doesn't mean that I'm going to date or have dated the woman in question every time there's a spark - far from it. The spark is necessary, but not sufficient.)
As far as I can tell, our brains work in fairly similar ways, based on having the same MBTI and a few other similarities. Given that supposition, my guess is that the distance was a real non-starter for her. She was going along with my requests and suggestions in an attempt to see what would happen, much like I'd gone on 3-4 dates with some women I wasn't feeling "sparky" about, but fundamentally I was in the "not going to happen" bucket from the beginning. That was a manageable dissonance from a distance, but in person her ambivalence resolved itself and it was all over.
Clearly I bear a lot of responsibility for the whole situation. I let my optimism convince me that a bit of reassurance and in-person chemistry would assuage her stated doubts, instead of interpreting "I'm not sure" as the actual "I'm not interested." I gave her too much credit and benefit of the doubt with respect to her communication skills, and read too much into her text-based smiles and hugs, and thanks at the end of each phone call. And I did push the interaction forward, which seemed more about the gender dynamic and the fact that I was the pursuer, and not about her disinterest.
Or maybe she just didn't feel any attraction in person. Who knows?
What did I learn? Historically I simply don't pursue women who aren't interested in being pursued. This was an intentional exception to that, because it seemed like the potential match and goodness and upside was so good. Lesson learned, if they're not into it, it's not worth the time and effort. I want someone who's ready and willing to engage actively in the process and recognize what I've got to offer (again, that's necessary, but not sufficient).
And as always, listen to what they're saying, and ask for clarity. I've gotten better about being clear and communicating clearly about where I'm at and what I want. I've got to remember that it's hard, still, for me, and is for most other folks too.
Beyond that, long distance relationships have never appealed to me. I was willing to make an exception in this case, again due to the potential upside. But I think situations where I can't meet someone fairly early on are a bad idea.
I haven't contacted her yet, though I intend to in a few days. I'd like to think an actual friendship is possible once we get this elephant out of the room. I'm also going to mention that, for future reference, inviting someone to travel 1,000 miles and take a boat to another country probably isn't a good strategy for turning down dinner.
So there it is. I'm sure I've left out some important details, but this will have to do for now. Hope everyone's curiosity is mostly satisfied. Go look at the pictures on FB for more fun.
======
Thoughts on cruise ships
Cruise ships are weird.
This particular cruise attracted a some loud drunk types, frat boys and bachelorette parties and such. Not everyone was a rowdy drunk, but it doesn't take too many to color a social space, and I expect the weekend trips to Mexico tend to be booked by the partier types. They weren't everywhere, but did tend to congregate at the bars and hot tubs.
The ship itself is pretty much a gaudy hotel on the water, complete with a casino, several bars, and a few different restaurants. The food is all free, alcohol and pop are not. The decor was terrible and gaudy in some parts and merely inoffensive in others.
The food was mostly "fancy" american style, pancakes and eggs and meat at the buffet for breakfast, steak available for every dinner, not much in the way of salad, and those available mostly feature iceberg lettuce. Some of it was good, most was thoroughly unremarkable. Funny note, with an infinite supply of free (mediocre) food, 24 hours a day, I tended to put less on my plate than I otherwise might, because there was not a chance of scarcity. Between the food and dancing, I think I actually lost weight on the cruise.
The ship was always in motion, however subtle. Mostly you didn't notice it. Sometimes it was like being a bit tipsy, a little unstable as you walked from here to there, or just feeling it internally as you sat. You could see it in your water glass. Mostly it wasn't an issue when dancing, because we were in motion anyway, but when the ship was really moving it was kind of fun to dance, because it added an element of surprise, like the ship was leading all of the dancers. The constant motion did add an element of physical unsettledness to the trip, like always being just 2% sick.
Sleeping on board was difficult for me. Aside from the constant, subtle motion and the complications of a racing mind, the comings and goings of my cabin-mates and hallway noise was difficult to deal with. Earplugs and an eye mask FTpartialW. Naps were hard to schedule around cabin-mates. I didn't feel rested the entire trip.
Funny thing: the cheap rooms, closer to the water line and internal to the boat (like mine) are nearest the axis of rotation of the ship, while the more expensive rooms on the upper decks with windows are further from the axis, and therefore are going to experience the most motion.
I suspect a different sort of cruise on a different ship or cruise line would present another experience. I'm not convinced I'll test that theory anytime soon.