How to Change an Industry

[zhai]

It seems that the feminism issue rears its head on the speculative fiction blogosphere about once every six months, maybe more frequently if you follow specific blogs in question. I'd been meaning, with certain trepidation, to throw my hat in, and now seems an opportune time as I have found myself unwittingly participating in one editor's salvo in

Comments

[lumi21]

Re horde druid -- why a female tauren, though?

Roleplaying, I suppose. I had a character in mind that I wanted to play, and I felt it was more conducive to the personality to make her female. My first rogue was a human female, too.

My second druid was guy, but there wasn't much roleplaying involved there. I just wanted to be huge =)

Which brings me to another potential line of reasoning. The male tauren is the largest model in the game, and that bothers some people. On the other hand, some people get a kick out of being able to hide a gnome completely inside your model when riding a kodo.

Some of the argument for SC did surface in the comments -- in that Voldo, for instance, is probably equally as physically impossible (as is the Soul Blade, for that matter) as Taki's SC3 boobs, but I think the point remains... in male characters the exaggeration is on attributes that emphasize their strength; in females the exaggeration is on sexualized elements that would impair their physical performance, and that is indicative of a subversive bias, whatever its more simple motivation ("teenage boys who are SC's main audience like to watch bouncing boobs").

Can't really deny that, you're quite right. I'm not really sure what to do about it, either, or what could be done. What it boils down to, really, is that sex sells. As long as it keeps the sales figures high, it's going to be very difficult to convince anyone who actually gets to make these decisions to do otherwise.

It's the modern societal model of stereotypes. Boys aren't allowed to cry and girls all have to look like Barbie. Perhaps the reason we see more "realistic" heroines in literature than any other form of media is that we don't actually "see" them. If SC were a text based game (hi, Gemstone!), I bet we'd see tons more variety in physical appearance, age, and attractiveness.

[zhai]

Okay, see, when you bring roleplaying into the picture at high levels (people who are far enough into roleplaying to want to play an opposite gender -- it's a threshold) you pretty much bork all statistics. :) And I am still highly skeptical about any kind of roleplaying going on in WoW outside of the player's head (I certainly understand about internal character-related stories -- I make them up for mine, too).

The NE female I think was mostly intended to be humorous/entertaining, with the pole dancing and whatnot -- they had a history of those oversexualized female characters in the Blizzard artwork, and they just ran with it, embraced it rather than fighting it -- probably without too much thought of what the long term effects would be. Or maybe they just knew that enough guys would be wanting to watch a female NE butt swaying that they'd make up for anyone who was bothered by it.

Sex does sell, but there is backlash, too. There was quite a bit of backlash as I understand it against SC4's ridiculous concept art proportions. It was such an obvious attempt to move into DoA territory, and gaming audiences will rebel against that kind of thing. There's little telling with Japanese companies, but I wouldn't be surprised if future versions tone it down a bit. But then, I suspect that franchise has already peaked, and their desperation is showing. It's a shame, I liked the earlier games.

[lumi21]

And I am still highly skeptical about any kind of roleplaying going on in WoW outside of the player's head

Oh, absolutely! But remember, I come from Gemstone. When I heard "RP server", I figured it would be "GS with graphics, in the world of the Warcraft games". I didn't know anything about the game, really, and the ways in which the mechanics and static nature of the game world make roleplaying more or less impossible. And that's not even getting into the player base (this was my first MMO, so I was simply naive as to the sort of attitudes toward roleplaying, griefing, etc. that I would find there). So yes, I've pretty much given up on roleplaying in WoW entirely, even if I come up with a little backstory for my own characters.

But then, I suspect that franchise has already peaked, and their desperation is showing. It's a shame, I liked the earlier games.

SC or DoA?

[elenuial]

Gemstone... Is that the MMO that didn't have any combat mechanics? Whatever it is, I wish I'd heard of that game before it died.

I think the idea of an MMO that throws out the usual kill-loot-level reward system and replaces it with more social incentives is really interesting.

[zhai]

He's talking about this Gemstone, the Simutronics text-based older sister to DragonRealms, which I worked on. I'm unfamiliar with Gem's combat, but DR, which was based on its engine (all Simu games use a proprietary scripting language called 'Gemstone Scripting Language') did have a pretty unique learning system whereby you could learn virtually any skill, not just those owned or maintained by your character class. So anyone could become a master skinner, though Rangers always had a boost to it and could do special things with the skins. It created a very dynamic environment that to this day offers interesting things to the MMO field. In addition to learning any skill, "Teaching" itself was a skill, as was "Scholarship" (learning by listening or reading), so you could transfer skills between individuals socially, which is a pretty phenomenal roleplaying enhancing design tool. There was also one entirely social non-combat class, Empaths, who literally could not fight, would go into empathic shock if they harmed another living thing, so the entire system was strong enough to sustain an entirely socially dependent class.

For roleplaying and social design I think the Skotos games have an edge on Simu's, being effectively a second generation contemplation on similar concepts, but Gem and its cousins certainly did interesting things.

[zhai]

Oh, I do understand. I was just pointing out that you are very likely the exception and not the rule in having any roleplaying sensibility and applying it to WoW. ;) I know there are roleplaying groups that engage in pretty spirited roleplay on the servers, but it's nothing compared to what you'd see in your average MUSH, as you know.

SC. I liked some of DoA's gameplay but the boobulage was just way too much for me.

[lumi21]

I know there are roleplaying groups that engage in pretty spirited roleplay on the servers, but it's nothing compared to what you'd see in your average MUSH, as you know.

Yeah, the person who got me to finally play WoW sold me on it by saying she was in a roleplaying guild, and that they did it all the time. She failed to explain that their concept of "roleplaying in WoW" was using the text chat to conduct their RP while playing the game, as two completely separate activities divorced from each other.

If I wanted that, I could have stayed on AOL and hung out in the Red Dragon Inn...

SC. I liked some of DoA's gameplay but the boobulage was just way too much for me.

Yeah, DoA was pretty ridiculous from the get-go insofar as female proportions on their characters (though they scored major, major points in my book by including Ryu Hayabusa as a character, and I did really like the team attacks ^_^).

I will keep my fingers crossed for SC, as it's one of my favorite fighting franchises.

[zhai]

I just went and looked at the SC4 website. Holy crap. Did you see that they've added Darth Vader as a bonus character?

I remain slightly skeptical as I thought SC3 was disappointing, but between this and what I've seen of GTA4, I may have to buy a PS3 this summer...

[anguirel]

DoA's boobulage (which may be my new favorite word), at least, was so incredibly intentional that they had a jiggle-slider in the options. When the game is flat out telling you why it's there, I feel that's at least a service in the form of honesty ("she kicks high"). I'm less happy with titles which try to act like it's somehow not intending to use sex to sell the game.

[zhai]

I would agree with that. I thought poorly of SC for chasing DoA, but DoA itself I just thought was funny. I'm fine having no inclination to play a game and letting it go, particularly when it's one instance and is very up front about what it's trying to say and do -- I think that's an important delineation, and also applies to things like the violence in GTA, which might have been better received if the game's social message were a little better expressed in the media. I don't believe in censorship, generally, and all of this is probably a good addition to the conversation on feminism, because there are certainly a good many angry types who would prefer to have the ability to ban or otherwise destroy DoA just for being what it is. I don't consider it an affront to any kind of basic sensibility or ethic, though I do reserve the right to make fun of people who ogle the pixel boobs.

[lumi21]

I agree completely, well said. And yeah, "boobulage" is a fantastic word =)

[elenuial]

Yes, sex sells. So do other things. There's no way to instantly remove idiotic hypersexualized images from mainstream media, but (as zhai says in the OP) you can put out alternatives, and with enough people putting out enough alternatives that sell well enough, the state of the industry will change.

Also (this isn't something you said, but I figure I'll mention it here anyways), making appeals to "realism" is a crap way to justify stupidity. Realism is not a toggle switch. Do you want to play my game based off of Kandinsky paintings? That's what happens when you throw realism out the window.

The fact that the characters exist in a system with physics vaguely like ours purports some degree of realism. So you can apply the same argument back: there's gravity, and that's realistic. So why can't the breasts be realistic?

I think pointing towards that subversive bias mentioned is key, whether you want to look at it from the lens of their methods or motivations from breaking with reality or not: the choices (even unconscious) a creator makes is informed by and contributes to societal expectations. When those choices include unrealistic and monstrous boobies on a Xena-type, that says something.

[lumi21]

There's no way to instantly remove idiotic hypersexualized images from mainstream media, but (as zhai says in the OP) you can put out alternatives, and with enough people putting out enough alternatives that sell well enough, the state of the industry will change.

From my admittedly uninformed standpoint, these efforts are not cumulative over time. There's a point of critical mass that must be achieved in a relatively short time to prevent such alternatives from being more than just a flash in the pan. I don't know what that critical mass is, and maybe I'm dead wrong, but that's the impression I get.

Also (this isn't something you said, but I figure I'll mention it here anyways), making appeals to "realism" is a crap way to justify stupidity. Realism is not a toggle switch. Do you want to play my game based off of Kandinsky paintings? That's what happens when you throw realism out the window.

Eh, I'm not sure how much I agree with this. There IS such a thing as too much realism; racing games found this out a long time ago. I definitely think there are diminishing returns on realism, but it mostly depends on game play, in my opinion. I'll take aesthetic liberties with physics in stride as long as it doesn't interfere with my perception of the mechanical physics. In other words, Cloud's hair doesn't bother me, impossible as it is, as long as the gameplay physics act the way I expect them to.

So you can apply the same argument back: there's gravity, and that's realistic. So why can't the breasts be realistic?

Realistic gravity affects gameplay. If it does not conform to my expectations of realism, it's going to interfere with my ability to interact with the game, which is often a major detriment to fun. Seeing Taki's boobs standing impossibly out from her chest or bouncing like water balloons whenever she moves might strike me as ridiculous, but otherwise it has no impact on the game play, and hence doesn't really impact the fun factor of my experience. But then again, this likely comes back to the fact that I don't look at her and imagine how painful it would be if my boobs were being stuffed into that outfit =)

I apologize for the academic jargon, but they're a faster means of communication

[elenuial]

I'm really just trying to point out that assuming "realism" doesn't apply smacks of silliness and desperation by dudes who want to look at boobies. Sure, the nature of medium implies a suspension of disbelief, and there's something in what you say about gradations of realism applying in more meaningful ways to ludic experience rather than the aesthetic.

But "None of it is real, so chill out," sounds an awful lot to me (in terms of intent) like "Hey, can't you take a joke?" It's a meaningless diffuser of meaningful conversation. A game's realism (or lack thereof) doesn't impact that on an emotional level you or I might feel like Ivy's bondage gear is silly at best and insulting at worst.

From my admittedly uninformed standpoint, these efforts are not cumulative over time. There's a point of critical mass that must be achieved in a relatively short time to prevent such alternatives from being more than just a flash in the pan. I don't know what that critical mass is, and maybe I'm dead wrong, but that's the impression I get.

Yes and no. For example, hippies existed in 1960. There were just more of them in 1969; they had achieved that critical mass that you're talking about. Maybe that's around the frame of reference you were discussing, but a slow and steady effort over a period of years or even decades is usually pretty effective at making change. It's just that people don't notice until the end of it.

That's where the critical mass comes in: not of how much material there is, but of how many people are noticing it. It's hard to climb to the top of a power law distribution, but it's doable.

And I will firmly believe that until I'm on my deathbed and realize that I've wasted my life and magically find religion. :)

Re: I apologize for the academic jargon, but they're a faster means of communication

[lumi21]

Yes and no. For example, hippies existed in 1960. There were just more of them in 1969; they had achieved that critical mass that you're talking about. Maybe that's around the frame of reference you were discussing, but a slow and steady effort over a period of years or even decades is usually pretty effective at making change. It's just that people don't notice until the end of it.

I think I'm being unclear, because it sounds like you agree with me from this example ;) The hippies did grow in numbers and influence over the course of the decade; they gained momentum. It wasn't a handful that popped up each year and then were swept away before the next batch cropped up. They snowballed.

If we have one pro-female-realism title each year, it doesn't necessarily mean that the industry will improve in that regard. If the attention and thought provoked by the release of one has all but eroded back to nothing by the time the next is released, I don't think the end result is going to be any sort of non-trivial change. Each needs to build on the societal momentum of the previous one(s) in order to reach that critical mass.

Re: I apologize for the academic jargon, but they're a faster means of communication

[zhai]

If we have one pro-female-realism title each year, it doesn't necessarily mean that the industry will improve in that regard.

Not speaking for elenuial, but I actually think that if this happens, that is exactly how the industry will improve. This is how critical mass is achieved.

The basic problem preventing critical mass is a lack of systemic momentum, a lack of enough pockets of activity, like isolated weather patterns that never come together to make a hurricane. Increased incidence of those individual events eventually cause that critical mass point to be reached, and in terms of games, a backlog of material -- the games never disappear -- can continually generate dialogue, which generates an audience over time.

I don't think a comprehensive enlightenment is necessary or possible. But I think steady work shining a spotlight on positive efforts (and not just spotlighting but generating revenue in their direction, which means taking consumer action in support) will eventually get that engine running on its own. Think of it like accumulating a long list of entries on google -- so that when a person does spot research they don't just find one or two isolated instances and then move on; they find an entire community, an entire world and a place to inhabit.