parrot_lovers drama; sexism reprise
No I'm not going to lj-cut this.
The parrot_lovers community is really driving me nuts. The mods have a policy there that as long as something is not a direct attack it's okay, and indirect attacks are perfectly fine. So saying "that's a stupid thing to do" is perfectly acceptable, as is yelling at someone in ALL CAPS to "STOP BREEDING!"
For those on my friendslist (or not) who care, here's a few comments I put in threads there lately that help sum up my thoughts.
Seriously, this reminds me of grad school where I was told "your work isn't good enough" and "men need to be taken care of by a woman." Tell me how that's any less insulting or demoralizing than telling a grad student that she's stupid, or that she specifically should be taking care of her man instead of being a grad student. Try and tell me that's not a hostile atmosphere discouraging open communications.
I don't mean that critiques should be discouraged. I mean that *value judgments* should be discouraged. Saying something like "letting a child breed birds is stupid" is a value judgment of the person's actions, and is a subjective opinion statement that cannot be discussed with any real purpose. Saying something like "successfully breeding healthy well-adjusted birds takes a lot of time, energy, financial commitment, and research" is an objective statement that can be backed up with evidence, contains information allowing the person to make an informed decision, and is a debatable point. Value judgments, regardless of whether they're aimed at an individual, the person's actions, or the person's ideas, are not constructive critiques.
...
Of course I do know I'm welcome to go elsewhere. However, I like this community - and the majority of its members the majority of the time - enough that I think it's worth my working to improve it instead of giving up on it as a lost cause.
*sigh* It's frustrating, just like work drives me nuts at times, but really, it has to be WORTH something to be willing to put up with that frustration.
And in the end, in a comment to mod bloolark:
I personally feel that borderline comments by members of this community should be responded to by other members publicly in the comments, in a calm and rational way ..., while the policy as it now reads discourages that in favor of our tattle-tale-ing to the mods. Tattle-tale-ing leads to a climate of fear, where the mods are an ultimate authority. Self-policing leads to a stronger community where we can come to a consensus of what is acceptable. What I was hoping you would put in this post was encouraging members to be respectful of each other, and instead what I read was encouraging members to keep their mouths shut when they are insulted or notice other members insulting each other, unless they want to act as a whistle-blower.
BTW, I appreciate your efforts to make yourself clear, and to make this an open community where we can all speak our minds. I happen to disagree with how you're going about it, which leads me to continue to appreciate your efforts to hear me out and try to understand my point of view. As I mentioned in comments elsewhere, I value this community as a wonderful resource, and I feel it's worth my time and effort to work on improving it. I've been tempted to leave a couple times since I joined a year ago (hadn't mentioned it b/c I saw no need to do so), but I reminded myself that this is a good GREAT community with people who care immensely about birds and are very knowledgeable about them, and instead decided to channel the frustration into trying to get myself heard. Once again, thank you for your time and efforts, and for listening to me even when we don't agree.
My desire for self-moderation by community members is inspired by this saga.
The parrot_lovers community is really driving me nuts. The mods have a policy there that as long as something is not a direct attack it's okay, and indirect attacks are perfectly fine. So saying "that's a stupid thing to do" is perfectly acceptable, as is yelling at someone in ALL CAPS to "STOP BREEDING!"
For those on my friendslist (or not) who care, here's a few comments I put in threads there lately that help sum up my thoughts.
Seriously, this reminds me of grad school where I was told "your work isn't good enough" and "men need to be taken care of by a woman." Tell me how that's any less insulting or demoralizing than telling a grad student that she's stupid, or that she specifically should be taking care of her man instead of being a grad student. Try and tell me that's not a hostile atmosphere discouraging open communications.
I don't mean that critiques should be discouraged. I mean that *value judgments* should be discouraged. Saying something like "letting a child breed birds is stupid" is a value judgment of the person's actions, and is a subjective opinion statement that cannot be discussed with any real purpose. Saying something like "successfully breeding healthy well-adjusted birds takes a lot of time, energy, financial commitment, and research" is an objective statement that can be backed up with evidence, contains information allowing the person to make an informed decision, and is a debatable point. Value judgments, regardless of whether they're aimed at an individual, the person's actions, or the person's ideas, are not constructive critiques.
...
Of course I do know I'm welcome to go elsewhere. However, I like this community - and the majority of its members the majority of the time - enough that I think it's worth my working to improve it instead of giving up on it as a lost cause.
*sigh* It's frustrating, just like work drives me nuts at times, but really, it has to be WORTH something to be willing to put up with that frustration.
And in the end, in a comment to mod bloolark:
I personally feel that borderline comments by members of this community should be responded to by other members publicly in the comments, in a calm and rational way ..., while the policy as it now reads discourages that in favor of our tattle-tale-ing to the mods. Tattle-tale-ing leads to a climate of fear, where the mods are an ultimate authority. Self-policing leads to a stronger community where we can come to a consensus of what is acceptable. What I was hoping you would put in this post was encouraging members to be respectful of each other, and instead what I read was encouraging members to keep their mouths shut when they are insulted or notice other members insulting each other, unless they want to act as a whistle-blower.
BTW, I appreciate your efforts to make yourself clear, and to make this an open community where we can all speak our minds. I happen to disagree with how you're going about it, which leads me to continue to appreciate your efforts to hear me out and try to understand my point of view. As I mentioned in comments elsewhere, I value this community as a wonderful resource, and I feel it's worth my time and effort to work on improving it. I've been tempted to leave a couple times since I joined a year ago (hadn't mentioned it b/c I saw no need to do so), but I reminded myself that this is a good GREAT community with people who care immensely about birds and are very knowledgeable about them, and instead decided to channel the frustration into trying to get myself heard. Once again, thank you for your time and efforts, and for listening to me even when we don't agree.
My desire for self-moderation by community members is inspired by this saga.