Aramis first! You've convinced me that Aramis was genuinely religious in the first book! I had forgotten about the cat of nine tails... I imagine only an over abundance of guilt and despair would have provoked him to that... or maybe he was quite convinced that it was the right thing to do? Either way, Aramis fascinates me these days, especially since I just finished 20Yrs and Aramis was definitely my favourite by the end! I still love Athos but he's changed so much from the cool, noble, violent, emotionally distant Athos that I fell in love with all those years ago. First he gets all mopey about killing Morduant, then he resolves never to draw his sword again unless he has no other choice! Athos, Athos! You're the best swordsman in the books! You have nerves of steel! You don't mope and faint and sit in corners trembling! :(
Whereas Aramis on the other hand just got cooler and more unfathomable and I really dig his pragmatism and ruthlessness. He is less straigh t up good than the others and it's fascinating. And poor, dear, Porthos, Dumas really seems to have pigeon holed him as a lovable stupid giant. "Your strength is not in your head." "No," replied Porthos, "it is in my arms and shoulders!"
I'm sad that the Queen is carrying Aramis' baby because now he'll be mopey and emotional and not snarky and ruthless and surrounded by pretty mistresses. Although it'd be quite a stretch to rewrite history so that Louis XIV was born both early and to Aramis rather than Louis XIII so I imagine the Queen won't successfully carry this baby either - poor Anne.
You said that you read 20Yrs before you read 3M... I'm curious as to how whether you think the "true" personalities of the Four are their older, wiser, less brash and idealistic selves at 40? because I still miss those foolish, brave young men who had nothing to live for but each other and their honour!
Athos especially, as I said earlier... I like him best in 3M. It is a bit uncomfortable to pry into all of his faults when he's viewed through a thoroughly modern lens. Rather disturbingly, I feel I can rationalise his hanging of Milady more easily (essentially, a crime or passion since he loves too deeply and values truth and honour above all else) than I can his love of the nobility a and contempt of the commoner.
Aramis is brilliant in 20yrs, he's really having the time of his life! I love the bit where d'Artagnan goes to meet him and sees his organised system of rope ladders and such for meeting his mistress/es. Athos has his moments in this book, too - although d'Artagnan is the one to bring about the reunion, Athos is the one holding the group together. But there is too much emphasis on feelings and fainting. He does kill Mordaunt in the end, though, so we haven't lost him yet, but I can see the way to 10yrs from there on...
Porthos really gets more stupid book by book. In the first book he's still cunning and he's got his own life, but in 20yrs he's basically just tagging along. There isn't much of a backstory for Porthos in the first book either, though, is there? Or is my memory failing me?
Yeah, I'm afraid of what'll happen to Aramis's character. I hope they won't try for an ongoing (monogamous) romance, that'd take such an essential part out of him. I'm not sure about the baby, my first thought was that it was going to be Louis XIV because why would they put a twist like that in the show if it wasn't important? They are taking a lot of liberties anyway... but I hope that's not going to happen.
About reading 20yrs before 3M, that's an interesting question! I do think d'Artagnan became my favourite because of that. I like him in 3M, too, but I like the more mature, slightly melancholy version of him, especially when he always gives in to Athos's noble but possibly suicidal ideals in the end. I didn't really like Aramis that much, he felt opportunistic and somewhat unpleasant because I didn't know his past or the development of his character. After reading 3M, I really liked the way he'd matured!
Athos was my other favourite in 20yrs, mostly because he seemed like a perfect romantic hero, reconciliating his friends and trying to rescue a doomed king... The execution scene where he's hiding under the scaffold had a great effect on me, as well as the bit where he almost drowns but stabs Mordaunt in the end. But that was before I knew what he was like in the first book!
I think of the 3M personalities as canon because they are simply glorious, and the world feels full of possibilities. You just know they're going to be great. And then in the sequel... they kind of aren't.
Considering how much I like Athos, I'm suprised at how cynically I've viewed his character in 3M. It's easier to understand him hanging his wife as a result of his obsessive passion, but that's not how I saw it. Rather I took it as a part of the same package with the pride, nobility and contempt of common people. His wife, a common criminal! The shame, the horror! I thought the sense of betrayal didn't come so much from his love than from his wounded pride/sense of propriety. I do believe he loved her, but other considerations were more important for someone of his station. It seems so self-evident to him - of course he had her hanged! This is basically what I got out him when I was younger.
But we only hear the tale he recounts to d'Artagnan, and that's probably coloured by his self-loathing. And he's very much affected by what's happened; he's melancholy, self-destructive, summer's a horrible time for him because it reminds him of her. Very little is actually said of their relationship, and Athos in 3M isn't going to open up about his deepest feelings. So actually, while I see his love of nobility more critically now, I can also see him in a somewhat more sympathetic light.
This is pretty much me thinking while writing, trying to understand Athos's infuriating but fascinating character. There's so many different ways he can be interpreted.
Hello there! I hope you will forgive me for being such a terrible correspondent. I would offer excuses but excuses are rather lame, so I will offer sincerest apologies instead.
I find our different perspectives from having read the books in a different order to be fascinating, but one thing you said really struck a chord with me - that in 3M, there's that huge sense of promise, of the amazing things that the four of them could achieve together... and then in 20Yrs, it seems like such a disappointment to see them as they are.
Although it's funny, because everyone got what they wanted in a way. D'Artagnan has his lieutenantship, but he STILL just has his lieutenantship (is that even a word) twenty years later... he's the musketeer he always wanted to be but that's all he has. He even says that he has no friends bar Rochefort at the beginning of the book, and he hadn't seen Rochefort for about 5 years at that point. Porthos is fabulously wealthy but still all he wants is to be loved and admired. Aramis is an Abbe, and the centre of all things conspiracy; Athos is all happy and domestic and paternal. And yet it all feels so unsatisfying somehow. Maybe it's because they're no longer friends or even in touch... I don't think I'll ever forgive that! :P It makes no sense at all and flies in the face of how much Dumas kept saying how inseparable they were and how much they loved and respected one another. Hmph. Silly Dumas!
About Athos and his treatment of Milady - please allow me to regale you with my crazy fangirl theory/rationalisation for Why It's Not OK But Sometime It's Understandable Why You'd Murder Your Wife.
So the way I see it, Athos (Olivier) was the only child of the former Comte and Comtess de la Fere. He was much loved and much was demanded of him. He was given an extensive education (in 3M, there's a gorgeous passage outlining just how well educated and posh Athos is, down to the perfection of his Latin and the superiority of his falconry knowledge), he's drilled to be an expert swordsman, he's taught to be graceful at every kind of social event. His father is an extremely proud man - all he wants is for Athos to be a gentleman, in the truest sense of the word, and to bring honour on the family name. I imagine that it's his (old fashioned) class values that Athos inherited. His mother is quiet and gentle and dotes on him in her own way. Think of Athos' mother and father feeling towards him the way Athos felt about Raoul - so proud of him they could burst, seeing him as the light and the love of their lives. Only Athos (Olivier) is very much their son, and naturally everyone has known it all their lives, and Athos is as fond of and as respectful of his mother and father as Raoul is of Athos.
We already know that Athos could be passionate and melodramatic (hello statue!) - so one day when he's in his late teens or early twenties, he meets the most beautiful and enchanting girl in the world, and she tells him that her name is Anne de Brueil. Athos being Athos, falls madly, insanely, completely in love with her. The kind of love that makes no sense and makes him think that he is literally going to die without her.
His father objects - she is a common girl with absolutely no 'people' and no traceable background and no way of proving that she is honest and trustworthy. His mother objects - call it a woman's intuition, but she doesn't trust 'Anne' as far as she can throw her. Athos is devastated their rejection of Anne. All he can see is her beauty and her innocence and the tragedy of her life. He swears up and down and on the bible and on his honour that she is true and worthy of being his wife.
His mother and father can see just how much Anne means to him and how earnestly he vouches for her. Athos stakes his word, his heart, his father's reputation and the good name of his estates on the fact that Anne is, as she told him, a girl from a respectable past, with no secrets, and no desires but to love him and to make him happy.
His parents relent in the face of his love for Anne, and Athos marries her and gives him his name, and his wealth, and his title, and his family.
His mother's health begins to fade; before long, she has passed away. His father grows cold and quiet and distant. But Anne remains beautiful and bright and loving and his and at least, Athos thinks, even if everything else in the world is kind of sad and awful, he has Anne. She is the centre of his world, his moon and stars and pride and joy.
And then one day, she falls from her horse; he finds the brand on her shoulder - everything that he ever felt feels like a like. It's not that he cares what she did, but she lied to him - deceived him - betrayed him. Imagine if Aramis, or Porthos, or D'Artagnan, or Raoul had deliberately set out to deceive and betray Athos - think of how crushed he would be, not because he was fooled, but because someone he loved more than life itself set out to maliciously deceive him.
He thinks of all that he threw away - his father's respect and regard, his mother's health, his own future as a Comte with a respectable wife, and he's so beside himself with hurt and self-loathing and despair that he doesn't see Anne as Anne anymore - he sees her as a demon or an enchantress, a changeling who has spirited away the best thing about his life and turned her into an ugly, evil, deceiving imposter.
And he hangs her from a tree, and heaps even more self-loathing and regret and despair on himself and rides away. And maybe he finds the courage to come back to his estates a few weeks later, thinking he could beg his father for forgiveness, but his father has died from the shock and nothing of his old life is left to him atll. And Athos cries out in despair and rides away and does a whole bunch of crazy and reckless things before being drafted into the musketeers because of one reckless, brave thing or another, but he can't outrun the shame and the regret and the self-loathing and the feeling that he's let everyone down and the white hot sick feeling of being betrayed and having betrayed everyone he ever loved.
And... that was crazy melodramatic fanfic but yeah. Somewhere in there I think is the approximation of Athos' backstory, and I think I could understand, if not condone, his hanging of Milady.
Hi again! No apologies needed, especially as I disappeared off the internet for a couple of weeks myself... I'm not tired of musketeering, just slow in responding!
I'm all for fangirl theories about Athos and Milady! Their story is really something I'd like to explain/justify for myself. There isn't much in the books about Athos's family, is there? I can't remember any mention of his mother and father. I always assumed that Athos's father was dead because otherwise it would have been his responsibility to decide Milady's fate. I thought that maybe Athos's parents were both dead and he'd had no one to offer him advice or forbid him from getting involved with Milady. His loneliness might also explain why he fell for her so completely.
In his shock, Athos seeing Milady as some kind of supernatural evil actually strikes a chord, I think it would be in keeping with the superstitions of the time.
Your theory would sort of make Athos's actions understandable in a modern light. My current, perhaps less forgiving, theory is that both characters love each other passionately, but there are things in their lives that take precedence even over that - Athos's honour, his respect for tradion and nobility and his sense of responsibility, and Milady's ambition (marrying above her station was a very good move for her, even if it was prompted by real attraction). I think this makes their actions understandable in the historical context, although the characters may not seem as nice to us.
Whereas Aramis on the other hand just got cooler and more unfathomable and I really dig his pragmatism and ruthlessness. He is less straigh t up good than the others and it's fascinating. And poor, dear, Porthos, Dumas really seems to have pigeon holed him as a lovable stupid giant. "Your strength is not in your head." "No," replied Porthos, "it is in my arms and shoulders!"
I'm sad that the Queen is carrying Aramis' baby because now he'll be mopey and emotional and not snarky and ruthless and surrounded by pretty mistresses. Although it'd be quite a stretch to rewrite history so that Louis XIV was born both early and to Aramis rather than Louis XIII so I imagine the Queen won't successfully carry this baby either - poor Anne.
You said that you read 20Yrs before you read 3M... I'm curious as to how whether you think the "true" personalities of the Four are their older, wiser, less brash and idealistic selves at 40? because I still miss those foolish, brave young men who had nothing to live for but each other and their honour!
Athos especially, as I said earlier... I like him best in 3M. It is a bit uncomfortable to pry into all of his faults when he's viewed through a thoroughly modern lens. Rather disturbingly, I feel I can rationalise his hanging of Milady more easily (essentially, a crime or passion since he loves too deeply and values truth and honour above all else) than I can his love of the nobility a and contempt of the commoner.
Reply
Porthos really gets more stupid book by book. In the first book he's still cunning and he's got his own life, but in 20yrs he's basically just tagging along. There isn't much of a backstory for Porthos in the first book either, though, is there? Or is my memory failing me?
Yeah, I'm afraid of what'll happen to Aramis's character. I hope they won't try for an ongoing (monogamous) romance, that'd take such an essential part out of him. I'm not sure about the baby, my first thought was that it was going to be Louis XIV because why would they put a twist like that in the show if it wasn't important? They are taking a lot of liberties anyway... but I hope that's not going to happen.
About reading 20yrs before 3M, that's an interesting question! I do think d'Artagnan became my favourite because of that. I like him in 3M, too, but I like the more mature, slightly melancholy version of him, especially when he always gives in to Athos's noble but possibly suicidal ideals in the end. I didn't really like Aramis that much, he felt opportunistic and somewhat unpleasant because I didn't know his past or the development of his character. After reading 3M, I really liked the way he'd matured!
Athos was my other favourite in 20yrs, mostly because he seemed like a perfect romantic hero, reconciliating his friends and trying to rescue a doomed king... The execution scene where he's hiding under the scaffold had a great effect on me, as well as the bit where he almost drowns but stabs Mordaunt in the end. But that was before I knew what he was like in the first book!
I think of the 3M personalities as canon because they are simply glorious, and the world feels full of possibilities. You just know they're going to be great. And then in the sequel... they kind of aren't.
Considering how much I like Athos, I'm suprised at how cynically I've viewed his character in 3M. It's easier to understand him hanging his wife as a result of his obsessive passion, but that's not how I saw it. Rather I took it as a part of the same package with the pride, nobility and contempt of common people. His wife, a common criminal! The shame, the horror! I thought the sense of betrayal didn't come so much from his love than from his wounded pride/sense of propriety. I do believe he loved her, but other considerations were more important for someone of his station. It seems so self-evident to him - of course he had her hanged! This is basically what I got out him when I was younger.
But we only hear the tale he recounts to d'Artagnan, and that's probably coloured by his self-loathing. And he's very much affected by what's happened; he's melancholy, self-destructive, summer's a horrible time for him because it reminds him of her. Very little is actually said of their relationship, and Athos in 3M isn't going to open up about his deepest feelings. So actually, while I see his love of nobility more critically now, I can also see him in a somewhat more sympathetic light.
This is pretty much me thinking while writing, trying to understand Athos's infuriating but fascinating character. There's so many different ways he can be interpreted.
Reply
I find our different perspectives from having read the books in a different order to be fascinating, but one thing you said really struck a chord with me - that in 3M, there's that huge sense of promise, of the amazing things that the four of them could achieve together... and then in 20Yrs, it seems like such a disappointment to see them as they are.
Although it's funny, because everyone got what they wanted in a way. D'Artagnan has his lieutenantship, but he STILL just has his lieutenantship (is that even a word) twenty years later... he's the musketeer he always wanted to be but that's all he has. He even says that he has no friends bar Rochefort at the beginning of the book, and he hadn't seen Rochefort for about 5 years at that point. Porthos is fabulously wealthy but still all he wants is to be loved and admired. Aramis is an Abbe, and the centre of all things conspiracy; Athos is all happy and domestic and paternal. And yet it all feels so unsatisfying somehow. Maybe it's because they're no longer friends or even in touch... I don't think I'll ever forgive that! :P It makes no sense at all and flies in the face of how much Dumas kept saying how inseparable they were and how much they loved and respected one another. Hmph. Silly Dumas!
About Athos and his treatment of Milady - please allow me to regale you with my crazy fangirl theory/rationalisation for Why It's Not OK But Sometime It's Understandable Why You'd Murder Your Wife.
So the way I see it, Athos (Olivier) was the only child of the former Comte and Comtess de la Fere. He was much loved and much was demanded of him. He was given an extensive education (in 3M, there's a gorgeous passage outlining just how well educated and posh Athos is, down to the perfection of his Latin and the superiority of his falconry knowledge), he's drilled to be an expert swordsman, he's taught to be graceful at every kind of social event. His father is an extremely proud man - all he wants is for Athos to be a gentleman, in the truest sense of the word, and to bring honour on the family name. I imagine that it's his (old fashioned) class values that Athos inherited. His mother is quiet and gentle and dotes on him in her own way. Think of Athos' mother and father feeling towards him the way Athos felt about Raoul - so proud of him they could burst, seeing him as the light and the love of their lives. Only Athos (Olivier) is very much their son, and naturally everyone has known it all their lives, and Athos is as fond of and as respectful of his mother and father as Raoul is of Athos.
We already know that Athos could be passionate and melodramatic (hello statue!) - so one day when he's in his late teens or early twenties, he meets the most beautiful and enchanting girl in the world, and she tells him that her name is Anne de Brueil. Athos being Athos, falls madly, insanely, completely in love with her. The kind of love that makes no sense and makes him think that he is literally going to die without her.
His father objects - she is a common girl with absolutely no 'people' and no traceable background and no way of proving that she is honest and trustworthy. His mother objects - call it a woman's intuition, but she doesn't trust 'Anne' as far as she can throw her. Athos is devastated their rejection of Anne. All he can see is her beauty and her innocence and the tragedy of her life. He swears up and down and on the bible and on his honour that she is true and worthy of being his wife.
Reply
His parents relent in the face of his love for Anne, and Athos marries her and gives him his name, and his wealth, and his title, and his family.
His mother's health begins to fade; before long, she has passed away. His father grows cold and quiet and distant. But Anne remains beautiful and bright and loving and his and at least, Athos thinks, even if everything else in the world is kind of sad and awful, he has Anne. She is the centre of his world, his moon and stars and pride and joy.
And then one day, she falls from her horse; he finds the brand on her shoulder - everything that he ever felt feels like a like. It's not that he cares what she did, but she lied to him - deceived him - betrayed him. Imagine if Aramis, or Porthos, or D'Artagnan, or Raoul had deliberately set out to deceive and betray Athos - think of how crushed he would be, not because he was fooled, but because someone he loved more than life itself set out to maliciously deceive him.
He thinks of all that he threw away - his father's respect and regard, his mother's health, his own future as a Comte with a respectable wife, and he's so beside himself with hurt and self-loathing and despair that he doesn't see Anne as Anne anymore - he sees her as a demon or an enchantress, a changeling who has spirited away the best thing about his life and turned her into an ugly, evil, deceiving imposter.
And he hangs her from a tree, and heaps even more self-loathing and regret and despair on himself and rides away. And maybe he finds the courage to come back to his estates a few weeks later, thinking he could beg his father for forgiveness, but his father has died from the shock and nothing of his old life is left to him atll. And Athos cries out in despair and rides away and does a whole bunch of crazy and reckless things before being drafted into the musketeers because of one reckless, brave thing or another, but he can't outrun the shame and the regret and the self-loathing and the feeling that he's let everyone down and the white hot sick feeling of being betrayed and having betrayed everyone he ever loved.
And... that was crazy melodramatic fanfic but yeah. Somewhere in there I think is the approximation of Athos' backstory, and I think I could understand, if not condone, his hanging of Milady.
Reply
I'm all for fangirl theories about Athos and Milady! Their story is really something I'd like to explain/justify for myself. There isn't much in the books about Athos's family, is there? I can't remember any mention of his mother and father. I always assumed that Athos's father was dead because otherwise it would have been his responsibility to decide Milady's fate. I thought that maybe Athos's parents were both dead and he'd had no one to offer him advice or forbid him from getting involved with Milady. His loneliness might also explain why he fell for her so completely.
In his shock, Athos seeing Milady as some kind of supernatural evil actually strikes a chord, I think it would be in keeping with the superstitions of the time.
Your theory would sort of make Athos's actions understandable in a modern light. My current, perhaps less forgiving, theory is that both characters love each other passionately, but there are things in their lives that take precedence even over that - Athos's honour, his respect for tradion and nobility and his sense of responsibility, and Milady's ambition (marrying above her station was a very good move for her, even if it was prompted by real attraction). I think this makes their actions understandable in the historical context, although the characters may not seem as nice to us.
Reply
Leave a comment