The Poetry Fishbowl project continues to develop, sprouting new options as participants make requests or say things that give me ideas
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Yeah, that's true. I look around for places that don't have a stated length limit for poems (or a high one, like 100 lines) and preferably allow batch submissions. Then I can put one or two multi-page poems in with the shorter ones, and hope something sells. But most editors will buy a short poem instead of a long one.
>>Even though I've written a plethora of small poems, I'm beginning to find the 20-30 line limits of many venues to be rather restrictive, especially when trying to tell a complex narrative through verse.<<
I hit that in the fishbowls if people give me complex prompts. If the topic is familiar, I can do it in a short poem; if I'm trying to tell a story, it takes more space. So I can totally sympathize with your dilemma.
>>It makes it hard to justify the time composing such pieces when you think they may never see publication.<<
I can see how that would happen. For me, writing is a necessity, so I write what I need to write. I prefer to write things that could sell, because this is how I put beans on the table. It helps that I write fast; even an epic may only take me an hour or few. Most people seem to take a lot longer to write poetry.
>> One might as well write it in prose form, which would annoy the poetry muse to no end.<<
I actually have some tales written out both in poetic and fictional modes. At least two of those stories have sold: "Peacock Hour" and "Goldenthread." A previous fishbowl poem, "Pawsoldier," inspired a related story (and other poetry); one from this month, "The Souls on the Wheel," may wind up getting reworked into a story (it's already 1000+ words).
>>I'm starting to think poets get shortchanged in more ways than one.<<
Many more ways, sad to say. Poetry is not widely respected these days, partly because people have spent some decades trying to tell schoolchildren that bad poetry is good. Poetry isn't considered a professional form of writing by the SFWA. Even the Science Fiction Poetry Association isn't as good at promoting poetry as it could be; they won't accept crowdfunded poems for the Rhysling Award and their promotion of poetry at conventions is patchy. Not a lot of markets will publish poetry; most of those that do, don't pay, and most of the ones that pay have really cheap rates. The most common payment for poetry above the fractional-cent "token" range is a flat $5 regardless of length.
One reason I find cyberfunded creativity so gratifying is that it allows me to connect with dozens of people who do love poetry and are willing to support it. This allows all of us to do an end-run around the barriers created by people who don't want, or don't believe in, poetry as a viable professional art form.
>>That fact does bother me sometimes, but I think the pathetic pay rate poetry often receives may have a lot to do with it. So much seems to revolve around pay-rate, which is in no way a true indicator of quality.<<
True. Americans have a bad habit of thinking money is everything.
>>Even the poetry requirements for active HWA membership are a bit hard to reach, considering how many markets pay less than 25 cents a line, or less than $5. And I think fewer markets take horror poetry anyway. <<
Hmm ... I didn't know that HWA membership had a poetry option. I write and read only a little horror, but my taste for it gradually growing. Any idea where I could find their parameters? And do you know if they explicitly rule out crowdfunded projects?
>>And what about those of us who write more than just horror poetry?<<
Well, the Science Fiction Poetry Association is open to writers and readers of any type of speculative poetry. They're very cosmopolitan in that regard; no publication required for membership, just the annual fee (which gets you a subscription to Star*Line and a copy of the Rhysling Anthology).
>>I was actually excited when I was paid $10 each for my poems in the Sorcerous Signals anthologies. That's much better than what I usually receive for my efforts (nothing to a mere pittance).<<
Woohoo! There are a decent number of markets that pay $10-20 for poetry. By the time you get to $50 and up, though, there are very few.
>>Now, how do we go about changing that?<<
Refuse to acknowledge the nonsensical claim that poetry is irrelevant or inferior as a form of art. Treat it as important and fascinating, professional and competent. Practice it. Spread it all over everywhere. Make money at it whenever you can, but if necessary, plaster it on the walls for free. Draw attention to it. Get young people involved in it. Attach it to things people already like. Gather together groups of people who love poetry, then encourage them to bring in their friends. Use poetry to reach people who are otherwise hard to reach, and to discuss topics that are too slippery for prose.
>> Can we make such changes, or is it too late? Has poetry lost any chance of regaining the respect it once had? <<
Oh, it's never too late. Fashion runs in cycles, and literature is no exception to that. Once, poets ate with rich men and danced with queens. Right now, nobody cares about poets. But there are still a few of us whose words are as sharp as swords and as powerful as time. Sooner or later, people will notice that and be impressed again, and rediscover a century or few of genius poets who died in obscurity. If I can flog them awake in my lifetime, terrific. If not ... *shrug* it wouldn't be the first time.
When people say "chapter and verse" They do not realize -- The Old Testament was written From the songs the lore-keepers made To remember the stories and truths of their people; The New Testament was structured So that line ran to line as in a song, Each concept given its own line, Line breaks creating new verse.
Epics, those poems whose length Is a tale of its own, those mighty tales Whose telling requires the memory Of Bards and Sages and Judges Whose form is designed for chanting, For sing-song, for building patterns Enabling the rememberer to remember better Its lines and words, its concepts and patterns, Those songs of heroes and gods Those yarns of considerable length: Hear us, you people! Hear us, we say! We tell the tales of our people to yours No matter how long in the telling! For length is no matter So long as the singer remembers the tale.
Now let us begin with the oldest law: To kill another without cause is wrong.
(I should note that the section on bible content is entirely without reference and may actually be wrong; but the muse said that the point needed to be examined, and poetic license allows for exaggerations at least, and false claims if they are known to be false or unreferenced.)
Yeah, that's true. I look around for places that don't have a stated length limit for poems (or a high one, like 100 lines) and preferably allow batch submissions. Then I can put one or two multi-page poems in with the shorter ones, and hope something sells. But most editors will buy a short poem instead of a long one.
>>Even though I've written a plethora of small poems, I'm beginning to find the 20-30 line limits of many venues to be rather restrictive, especially when trying to tell a complex narrative through verse.<<
I hit that in the fishbowls if people give me complex prompts. If the topic is familiar, I can do it in a short poem; if I'm trying to tell a story, it takes more space. So I can totally sympathize with your dilemma.
>>It makes it hard to justify the time composing such pieces when you think they may never see publication.<<
I can see how that would happen. For me, writing is a necessity, so I write what I need to write. I prefer to write things that could sell, because this is how I put beans on the table. It helps that I write fast; even an epic may only take me an hour or few. Most people seem to take a lot longer to write poetry.
>> One might as well write it in prose form, which would annoy the poetry muse to no end.<<
I actually have some tales written out both in poetic and fictional modes. At least two of those stories have sold: "Peacock Hour" and "Goldenthread." A previous fishbowl poem, "Pawsoldier," inspired a related story (and other poetry); one from this month, "The Souls on the Wheel," may wind up getting reworked into a story (it's already 1000+ words).
>>I'm starting to think poets get shortchanged in more ways than one.<<
Many more ways, sad to say. Poetry is not widely respected these days, partly because people have spent some decades trying to tell schoolchildren that bad poetry is good. Poetry isn't considered a professional form of writing by the SFWA. Even the Science Fiction Poetry Association isn't as good at promoting poetry as it could be; they won't accept crowdfunded poems for the Rhysling Award and their promotion of poetry at conventions is patchy. Not a lot of markets will publish poetry; most of those that do, don't pay, and most of the ones that pay have really cheap rates. The most common payment for poetry above the fractional-cent "token" range is a flat $5 regardless of length.
One reason I find cyberfunded creativity so gratifying is that it allows me to connect with dozens of people who do love poetry and are willing to support it. This allows all of us to do an end-run around the barriers created by people who don't want, or don't believe in, poetry as a viable professional art form.
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True. Americans have a bad habit of thinking money is everything.
>>Even the poetry requirements for active HWA membership are a bit hard to reach, considering how many markets pay less than 25 cents a line, or less than $5. And I think fewer markets take horror poetry anyway. <<
Hmm ... I didn't know that HWA membership had a poetry option. I write and read only a little horror, but my taste for it gradually growing. Any idea where I could find their parameters? And do you know if they explicitly rule out crowdfunded projects?
>>And what about those of us who write more than just horror poetry?<<
Well, the Science Fiction Poetry Association is open to writers and readers of any type of speculative poetry. They're very cosmopolitan in that regard; no publication required for membership, just the annual fee (which gets you a subscription to Star*Line and a copy of the Rhysling Anthology).
>>I was actually excited when I was paid $10 each for my poems in the Sorcerous Signals anthologies. That's much better than what I usually receive for my efforts (nothing to a mere pittance).<<
Woohoo! There are a decent number of markets that pay $10-20 for poetry. By the time you get to $50 and up, though, there are very few.
>>Now, how do we go about changing that?<<
Refuse to acknowledge the nonsensical claim that poetry is irrelevant or inferior as a form of art. Treat it as important and fascinating, professional and competent. Practice it. Spread it all over everywhere. Make money at it whenever you can, but if necessary, plaster it on the walls for free. Draw attention to it. Get young people involved in it. Attach it to things people already like. Gather together groups of people who love poetry, then encourage them to bring in their friends. Use poetry to reach people who are otherwise hard to reach, and to discuss topics that are too slippery for prose.
>> Can we make such changes, or is it too late? Has poetry lost any chance of regaining the respect it once had? <<
Oh, it's never too late. Fashion runs in cycles, and literature is no exception to that. Once, poets ate with rich men and danced with queens. Right now, nobody cares about poets. But there are still a few of us whose words are as sharp as swords and as powerful as time. Sooner or later, people will notice that and be impressed again, and rediscover a century or few of genius poets who died in obscurity. If I can flog them awake in my lifetime, terrific. If not ... *shrug* it wouldn't be the first time.
Reply
They do not realize --
The Old Testament was written
From the songs the lore-keepers made
To remember the stories and truths of their people;
The New Testament was structured
So that line ran to line as in a song,
Each concept given its own line,
Line breaks creating new verse.
Epics, those poems whose length
Is a tale of its own, those mighty tales
Whose telling requires the memory
Of Bards and Sages and Judges
Whose form is designed for chanting,
For sing-song, for building patterns
Enabling the rememberer to remember better
Its lines and words, its concepts and patterns,
Those songs of heroes and gods
Those yarns of considerable length:
Hear us, you people!
Hear us, we say!
We tell the tales of our people to yours
No matter how long in the telling!
For length is no matter
So long as the singer remembers the tale.
Now let us begin with the oldest law:
To kill another without cause is wrong.
(I should note that the section on bible content is entirely without reference and may actually be wrong; but the muse said that the point needed to be examined, and poetic license allows for exaggerations at least, and false claims if they are known to be false or unreferenced.)
Reply
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