Poetry Fishbowl Report for July 5, 2016

[ysabetwordsmith]

This month's theme was "Is there a word for that feeling?" I worked from 12:15 PM to 6 AM, so about 15 hours 45 minutes, allowing for lunch and supper breaks. I wrote 9 poems on Tuesday and another 16 later in the week, for a total of 25.

Participation was a little higher, with 38 comments on LiveJournal and another 45 on Dreamwidth. Please

Comments

[rhodielady_47]

I read your poem "With the Gravity Off" this evening.
It's an excellent poem.
Poems like this one help those of us who have no idea how someone like Austin experiences the world, begin to understand.

Do people like Austin understand that normals sometimes feel lost wondering how to adapt themselves to people like Austin?
:^}

Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I read your poem "With the Gravity Off" this evening.
It's an excellent poem.<<

Yay! I'm glad you liked it.

>> Poems like this one help those of us who have no idea how someone like Austin experiences the world, begin to understand. <<

\o/ Comments like this make me feel like I've done my job as a bard.

>> Do people like Austin understand that normals sometimes feel lost wondering how to adapt themselves to people like Austin?
:^} ... )

Re: Thank you!

[ng_moonmoth]

>> emembering which goes with whom is currently a memorized feature like names, something I am bad at, rather than being able to look at their clothes or hairdo and know which to use. <<

...which is a problem that smacks me in the face every day. I know where the space I would like to occupy in the landscape of gender expression lies. Right now, it is very tightly bounded by expressions that appear to mark me as my birth gender, "joke", "fraud", and "freak". Plus probably a few other things I haven't observed yet. It's pretty deserted, and many of those who might wish to join me here wind up on the other side of those boundaries. I'd like to think that I can find an expression that says "nope" to people who would wrongly categorize me, but it's hard in an environment where essentially nothing is categorized in a way that allows me to assert my gender identity. Maybe this will evolve over time. Maybe I can contribute to that evolution.

Re: Thank you!

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> ...which is a problem that smacks me in the face every day.<<

*hugs offered* That really sucks.

>> I know where the space I would like to occupy in the landscape of gender expression lies. Right now, it is very tightly bounded by expressions that appear to mark me as my birth gender, "joke", "fraud", and "freak". Plus probably a few other things I haven't observed yet. <<

>_<

>> It's pretty deserted, and many of those who might wish to join me here wind up on the other side of those boundaries.... )

Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ng_moonmoth]

One of Astin's "parents" here; a prompt of mine inspired the first Astin story, and ysabetwordsmith has woven many of my experiences into the thread.

<< Poems like this one help those of us who have no idea how someone like Austin experiences the world, begin to understand. <<

Thank you for being willing to improve your understanding. With so much exclusion and outright hatred directed at those whose sexuality or gender identity does not align with the mainstream, people who are willing to interact with us as people are rare and treasured.

>> Do people like Austin understand that normals sometimes feel lost wondering how to adapt themselves to people like Austin? ... )

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ysabetwordsmith]

Other words I have used, in various contexts, to replace "normal" include:

everyday
ordinary
usual
typical
customary
mainstream
cisgender
cissexual
average
functional
healthy

Norm, ord, mundane (or 'dane), muggle, etc. are pejoratives.

It can be really frustrating when a high-use word becomes or is perceived as negative, because there isn't always an adequate replacement. That means removing the word from use can impair communication, which is a problem.

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ng_moonmoth]

I think of all those, I like "mainstream" in this context the best. The mainstream is where much of the water in the river flows, but the sidestreams have their own value and charm -- and so much of the interesting stuff is over in the eddies and pools. And anyone who's got any experience with whitewater navigation understands how important being able to get out of the mainstream can be.

I expect other people will have their own favorites. It will be interesting to see whether anyone else checks in.

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ysabetwordsmith]

Yes, I use "mainstream" a lot because it doesn't necessarily imply "better" just "popular."

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[rhodielady_47]

Sorry--"normal" was a poor word choice. I really meant "we of the most commonly occurring variety" (Most vocal?) and that leads me to a what is a very nosy question: What percentage of the population is nonbinary?
And another:
Would you agree "nonbinary" actually covers a "spectrum"?
(Using "spectrum" for example the same way we do the autism spectrum--covering from low to high.) The reason why I ask is that I've been around "gay" people before but you--even in the few interactions we've had so far--come across as much different from them too. And THAT I haven't been around before. (I'd surely have noticed or at least I think I would have.)

Thank you for being willing to put up with my questions (more will be coming).
:^)

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ng_moonmoth]

>> Sorry--"normal" was a poor word choice. <<

Let's go with "unfortunate" instead. There's no particular reason for you to have been aware of its history of being used as a weapon against sexually and gender variant people. Plus, you're clearly approaching with an open mind and willing to learn. So I appreciate your apology, and welcome your continued interest in learning.

>> I really meant "we of the most commonly occurring variety" (Most vocal?) <<

Most common, yes. And there's a reason for that. Most people actually do line up reasonably well with the characteristics that are socially expected of their birth-assigned gender; cultures that do not provide some sort of place for the great majority of their people tend not to last.

As far as choice of words goes, the best way to pick a good one is to think of the word that comes to your mind as representing the "everyone else". If that word is exclusionary or hurtful, odds are it's not a good choice. For example, take the last two words in ysabetwordsmith's list above, "functional" and "healthy

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> For example, take the last two words in ysabetwordsmith's list above, "functional" and "healthy". The "everyone else" words I associate with them are "dysfunctional" and "unhealthy" -- neither of which is something I'd be comfortable being called. So, if anyone were to try either of those, they'd get a response from me. ... )

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ng_moonmoth]

>> I use ["functional" and "healthy"] to distinguish between things that are working and things which are not (or at least are risky). But I'm basing that on someone's internal comfort level, ability to manage tasks of everyday living, and not harming themselves or anyone else. If so, I care fuckall what society thinks. <<

A little more reflection provided some useful insight. "Unhealthy" is actually applicable to my relationship with my gender identity, but not the way gender bigots would use it. What's unhealthy is not that I have a gender identity that does not align with my birth or present morphology, but that I am constantly balancing the internal cost of suppressing it against the external cost of expressing it.

>> And whether you count the many people who are far enough from the extremes that the usual terms don't ... quite ... fit. Tomboys, for instance. I think that was the earliest genderqueer term I latched onto this life. ... )

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>A little more reflection provided some useful insight. "Unhealthy" is actually applicable to my relationship with my gender identity, but not the way gender bigots would use it. What's unhealthy is not that I have a gender identity that does not align with my birth or present morphology, but that I am constantly balancing the internal cost of suppressing it against the external cost of expressing it.<<

Exactly. You can be healthy or not in the state of your gender identity; and the choices you make may be healthy or not; and only some of that is your decision. Many people wind up unhealthy because they are tormented.

>> And another sad example of gender asymmetry. "Tomboy" is an acceptable epithet for girls, and there is no non-pejorative equivalent for boys who exhibit non-masculine forms of expression. And it gets worse from there.... )

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ng_moonmoth]

>> And another: Would you agree "nonbinary" actually covers a "spectrum"? (Using "spectrum" for example the same way we do the autism spectrum--covering from low to high.) ... )

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> That's another thing you'll get a lot of different viewpoints on. My personal view is that "spectrum" is a misleading oversimplification of an incredibly complex issue -- much like the difference between looking at a picture of a landscape and actually being on the land, relishing the variations in color, feeling the ground under your feet and the wind in your hair, noticing the varied scents. And maybe you've got a photograph, and maybe it's a painting -- but by Rembrandt, van Gogh, Picasso, or Jackson Pollock? And you don't really know, and won't unless someone who's been there tells you. <<

I like spectrum, and range, because they break down the binary illusion. (Male/female is biologically as well as socially incomplete.) It goes from two points to a line. Add another spectrum and you have the XY grid, for instance, gender and sexual orientation. Add a third and you have a cube such as sex, gender, and sexual orientation. But there are plenty more things, and this is why I say my sexuality is a tesseract. Some of us are

Re: Nonbinary person waves "hi"

[ng_moonmoth]

Tried (and crashed up against the comment size limit) to weave my responses back into a single thread. So, three individual comments.

>> I like spectrum, and range, because they break down the binary illusion. (Male/female is biologically as well as socially incomplete.) It goes from two points to a line. Add another spectrum and you have the XY grid, for instance, gender and sexual orientation. Add a third and you have a cube such as sex, gender, and sexual orientation. But there are plenty more things, and this is why I say my sexuality is a tesseract. Some of us are things that can't be plotted into conventional dimensions. ... )